The Startup CPG Podcast

Courtney Tucker
Anything about Hillside, it has to be quality. It has to be premium, has to be on point, because folks are looking at you and they're like, hey, make us proud, right? And so to that point, the community stands behind us. I think what sticks out to me is our first tasting, our first demo at a ABC store. We had a line wrapped around the door. It was like were selling iPhones, and it was like, grandmothers, aunties, uncles, they were just supporting us like no other. And we're, like, the fastest selling bourbon in the state. And so we broke a record. That all speaks to how we intentionally crafted our product. And so it's about community. It's about where we're from in terms of our heritage. And we just wanted to make our folks proud.

00:56
Caitlin Bricker
Hey, everybody. This is Caitlin Bricker, managing editor at startup cpg. We are back with another founder feature. Today I'm sitting down with Emmanuel Waters and Courtney Tucker, co founders of Old Hillside Bourbon Company, a spirit brand that celebrates history, heritage, and homage. In every pour, we're diving into how two cousins who didn't know each other connected during the pandemic to build a bourbon company rooted in black history. From the oldest African American high school in the US to forgotten black jockeys who dominated horse racing in the 1800s, this conversation gets real about the barriers black founders face in the spirits industry, the power of storytelling through product, and why representing less than 1% of ownership in a $40 billion market won't stop them from building legacy. Fair warning. You might get emotional. I did.

01:46
Caitlin Bricker
Prize for first brand to make me cry on camera goes to Old Hillside Bourbon Company. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it. As always, you better enjoy. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Startup CPG podcast. This is Kaitlin, and today I'm here with Emmanuel Waters and Courtney Tucker, founders of Old Hillside Bourbon Company. Guys, welcome to the show.

02:14
Courtney Tucker
Thanks for having us.

02:15
Emmanuel Waters
Thank you for having us. Good morning.

02:17
Caitlin Bricker
Good morning. It's morning for you. Kind of the afternoon for me. It's very good to have you here. I'm very excited. Although some of my listeners might already know this. I don't drink, but you guys have a fantastic story, so I think it needs to be heard. So I'm excited to get into this. Emmanuel.

02:36
Emmanuel Waters
Yes, ma'.

02:36
Caitlin Bricker
Am. Can you tell us. Can you tell us what Old Hillside Bourbon Company is?

02:45
Emmanuel Waters
Yeah. We are a spirit brand that celebrates history, heritage, and homage in every pore. That's kind of been our mantra. So we just like to celebrate those that came before Us and preserve history, really, with every bottle that we create. That's us in a nutshell.

03:00
Caitlin Bricker
And I love the alliteration, too, so that doesn't hurt. I love it. Before we get into all things Old Hillside Bourbon, because I know there's a lot to get into. I would love to know both of your backgrounds. So, Courtney, maybe you can kick us off. What is your background and how did you get into Old Hillside Bourbon?

03:21
Courtney Tucker
Yeah, so my background is in television, so I'm about 25 years in. I work in sports TV. I started out ABC news eons ago. But yeah, so that's my background. I'm a natural production storyteller, communications. Anything from marketing, sales. I've worked all that and throughout my television career. And how I got into oh Hillside was actually a pretty cool story. Jesse, which is one of my childhood buddies from elementary school, actually from junior high school, and Brian from elementary school, kind of stalked my Instagram page. I like to say stalk my Instagram page, because during the pandemic, I was posting a lot of bourbon pics, a lot of cigar pics. You know, I was doing a lot of collecting back at that time. And so I got a random call.

04:15
Courtney Tucker
Well, first a DM on Instagram, and it was Jesse saying, hey, I see you like bourbon. And I was like, yeah,

04:25
Caitlin Bricker
Great observation.

04:27
Courtney Tucker
So, and then they just gave me a call and they had this crazy idea. And mind you, I hadn't talked to these guys in over 20 plus years, right? And so I thought it was a joke, but Jesse had this idea of starting a bourbon company. And I thought about it for like a half a second and I was like, hey, I'm in. You know, sounds like a good thing, right? You know, we had time on our hands at that point in time. So I jumped right in and didn't have any I idea of how to start the bourbon company. Like, didn't know what the juice is going to be like or taste profile or bottle shape. None of that. We had none of that going. But we had an idea. And that's kind of how it all started.

05:05
Emmanuel Waters
You're in a national pandemic and says, I have this idea, Caitlyn, if I can give you any advice, hang up the phone.

05:12
Caitlin Bricker
Like, headphones off.

05:15
Emmanuel Waters
Hang up the phone, and it'll spare you some time with your life.

05:18
Caitlin Bricker
Hey, you know what? This could have been. Hey, let's start a bourbon company. Or it could have been you're maybe like the next person on 90 Day Fiance. So I'm glad it was The Bourbon route.

05:28
Courtney Tucker
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's been a fun ride. And Emmanuel complains about that phone call, but it's probably the best thing that ever happened to him, I think.

05:38
Caitlin Bricker
So, Emmanuel, how did you get involved with Old Hillside Bourbon and tell us your background? I feel like we're in for a treat here.

05:47
Emmanuel Waters
Hang up the phone. No. So my background is in corporate finance and legal. I've worked for Department of Defense for quite some time. And then they brought me out here to Silicon Valley. I got out and started doing biotech and tech for a while and was consulting, so that's kind of my background. And obviously, me and Courtney are actually blood cousins, but we didn't grow up together, Believe it or not. We didn't meet until later in life here in California. He just happened to be at a funeral, and my aunt was like, hey, like, you got this cousin out there that's in la, and he's hanging out with all these celebrities and NBA players. Like, you didn't meet this guy? And I'm like, oh, that's pretty cool. Like, so I was living in Orange county at the time, and we connected.

06:26
Emmanuel Waters
And so it's pretty crazy that my grandfather and his grandmother are maternal twins, and they were both 6 7, and we are not 6 7.

06:34
Courtney Tucker
We missed the height gene for sure.

06:36
Emmanuel Waters
Super tall. Super skywalkers, literally.

06:39
Caitlin Bricker
My husband's 6 5. I could not imagine him having another 2 inches above me. My neck is already like this constantly.

06:49
Emmanuel Waters
Yeah, yeah. So maternal twins. They're one of two of 16. So we got a really huge family. So obviously you don't know everybody, but our dads were close, and so they connected us. And, yeah, so we got close. And then when he called me what's interesting, I always joke around, but, you know, with everything going on in America at the time we're in, this is postrose Floyd and Sandra Bland. This is really racial situation that's going on in America at the time. And I read an article that morning that said, you know, black wealth to diminish in the country by 2040. I read it. It struck me. I said out loud, I said, man, I would love to do something to create generational wealth. I didn't know what that looked like.

07:26
Emmanuel Waters
I just kind of said it out loud maybe, you know, be careful what you say and be careful what comes out of your mouth, because. And so literally the next day, Courtney's like, hey, man, I connected with these old guys back from North Carolina, where we're from. He's like, they're going to Start a bourbon company like him. I just kind of laugh. I am not a bourbon drinker by trade. I had never drank bourbon up to that point other than maybe like Jack and Coke and maybe six. So I was like, eh.

07:51
Emmanuel Waters
But when we got on the call, so I drove to LAbor Day weekend of 2021, and we got on a call and when we got on the call and we heard the story, for the those that don't know the name, Hillside High School is the oldest African American high school in the United States. In Durham, North Carolina. I were from. So if you know anything about history, you know Durham is one of five black wall streets in America. And those that don't know during that time, obviously it was a time where were segregated right as a country. And so blacks, we had our own. Our own banks, our own businesses. And so I was like, wow, this is a really cool, fun story to tell. And so I was pretty much in.

08:29
Emmanuel Waters
And then Jesse was like, oh, and by the way, we're going to horse races down in Kentucky and there's a story about these African American jockeys, about the Kentucky Derby. I thought, wow, this is so much history that we're telling around bourbon. I was like, okay, I'm sold. I literally hadn't. Don't know what bourbon tastes like. Didn't know a good one if I had seen it or tasted it. But I was sold on the story. And then the legacy play that were trying to tell, and that's been now going on six years. So solid says I come kicking and screaming because I left corporate America do this. But it's been honestly, probably best phone calls I've ever answered.

09:01
Caitlin Bricker
Wow, so much to unpack here. And legacy, I feel like, is a key word that's probably going to keep coming up in this conversation. I'm super interested in the legacies that people leave behind and then of course, the legacies that people are building in person in front of us right now. Sounds very clear to me that this is something both of you are kind of like, maybe not bourbon.

09:25
Emmanuel Waters
What?

09:25
Caitlin Bricker
But now you're. You're invested. So tell me what it's been like. Emmanuel, we'll go back to you going from a background where bourbon was not your jam to now. It totally is. How does it feel to go from being in an environment where bourbon was not your thing to now you're kind of living and breathing bourbon every day, literally.

09:48
Emmanuel Waters
It has been extremely challenging, but rewarding at the same time. The CPG umbrella is a massive umbrella. Spirits is A probably like a line under there. It's a very, very competitive space. Right. If you know anything about spirits, like the US spirits industry alone, it's a $40 billion market. African Americans rep up something close to 12% of consumers and less than 1% of ownership. So imagine that, literally over $12 billion that we spend and yet we don't own really anything. So it doesn't reflect consumer. So this is a very. It's very challenging. Right. You're always trying to find shelf space and it's a crowded market. Bourbon and tequila, like the most bourbon is the true American sphere. Right. There's bourbon literally everywhere.

10:33
Emmanuel Waters
And so you're trying to compete with like the likes of Jack Downs and a wolfer who have had this industry unlocked for 350 plus years. It is very tough.

10:41
Caitlin Bricker
And it's not that good.

10:45
Emmanuel Waters
Your word's not mine.

10:46
Caitlin Bricker
Did I say that out loud?

10:50
Emmanuel Waters
Some of the stuff out there is absolutely terrible. But anytime that you can Google or research one of the stories that we tell and you try our juice and you say it's good, then we would have done our job. Right. I think that's the key.

11:03
Caitlin Bricker
Courtney, what was it like for you making the jump into bourbon?

11:08
Courtney Tucker
That transition for me was a little bit different because I was a bourbon fanatic. You know, I was a collector. I grew up drinking Jack Daniels,

11:18
Caitlin Bricker
The good stuff.

11:19
Courtney Tucker
You know, back then, that's all I could afford. And then so, you know, as I grew older, my palate started to change and I started to like different flavor profiles and kind of get into higher proof stuff. So it was a labor of love project for me. And that's kind of how I looked at it because I was always doing the collecting and I was always into cigars and things like that. So it was. It was more of a lifestyle thing for me. And so this fit really easy into that lifestyle. But I was already living full time, so I just looked at it as an opportunity to create something, create that generational wealth, create that camaraderie with. And we started out just kind of hanging out with the guys, right?

11:59
Courtney Tucker
So I looked at it like, hey, you know, this is a meeting that we're going to get on every week to talk about braver. To talk about just how we're doing. Because it started out as like a check in, a weekly check in. Because as Emmanuel alluded to earlier, like, there was so much going on in the world during that time. So June 1, 2020, the world was turned upside down, right? And so were just Checking in on each other and saying, hey, how are you doing today? How's your family? And so that was kind of like a brotherhood. Right? And so founding a friendship, this is kind of our motto. And so that speaks to the heart of what our company stands for.

12:32
Caitlin Bricker
And you know, Emmanuel, what you were saying is that the 1% ownership for black owned brands in this space is a crazy statistic for me. I feel like that is. I don't even know what word to use. But when I was looking at interviewing you guys and I saw you come to founders and funders too, I was thinking to myself, what black owned alcohol brands are coming to mind for me? And there was only one that was coming to mind for me.

12:59
Emmanuel Waters
Yeah, the big and the same one.

13:00
Courtney Tucker
We always get compared.

13:02
Emmanuel Waters
There are a plethora of us outside.

13:04
Courtney Tucker
Of the big ones.

13:05
Emmanuel Waters
But it's okay. You don't know what you don't know. Right. You just. I just tell people to educate themselves. Right. So I appreciate you having this platform so we could share our goodness.

13:14
Caitlin Bricker
Please. I mean, even for me, when I look at the space, I feel like there's definitely a lot of color missing. We need more diversity at cpg. We need more diversity in voices, more diversity and experience. If you wouldn't mind, can you tell me what your experience has been like stepping into this industry, especially with that 1% attached to the specific niche that you're in CPG, and how you're kind of breaking into this or making yourselves known.

13:46
Courtney Tucker
One example that kind of sticks out to me is that when we represent our brand, we get looked at as the help or like a worker or an associate. And then when you tell them, hey, this is our brand, we get like, oh, wow, you guys are the owners. So it's almost like a shock that we're in this space. And you know, I used to take it as a form of disrespect, but now I kind of embrace it. Right. Because I use that as a tool because that's leverage at this point. Right. Because they're not anticipating me walking in, owning a spirit. And so I just kind of used that to my advantage at this point.

14:26
Courtney Tucker
But again, it was hard to take, you know, coming from corporate where you have to fight and scrap for decisions and a seat at the table to have your own company that you're representing and you're the face of is huge for me.

14:42
Emmanuel Waters
And to piggyback off that, I think in addition to them saying, oh, you're the owners, also when they would taste they'd be like, oh, this is really good.

14:49
Caitlin Bricker
I'm like, what were you expecting?

14:51
Courtney Tucker
What were you expecting? That was the thing. We always get that.

14:54
Emmanuel Waters
And the one thing I can appreciate, in addition to our amazing stories that we tell, is we have really good bourbon. We are whiskey connoisseurs, like Jesse and Brian and Courtney. I say those three because they were literally, like, doing distillery tours and tasting and trying. Like, my palate is now refined now, but I know what terrible juice tastes like by the time I did, so I couldn't tell you the difference. But we didn't go out there. And we'll wear this hat proudly. We are happy to say that we are black and a veteran owned brand, but we're just not trying to be the best black owned bourbon. We want to be the best owned bourbon, period. And we happen to be black, right? And we are connoisseurs of that.

15:29
Emmanuel Waters
And we stand by our craft, which is why all of our bottles have won gold and double gold and all those spirits challenges and whatnot. You know, like, we. We stand by that. But it's been tough, right? This is a very tough industry. We were at Buffalo Trace for Christmas. We had a company, all hands, and the lady had said something like, this is their 9th millionth barrel that they've done. They've been doing it since, like, 1775. And I looked around our guys, I said, we've only done. I don't even know what the number is, maybe a thousand at this point. But I said, guys, we're just simply behind the times. We're just newer space. That's really it, right? They've been doing this for literally hundreds of years, and we're doing it in year six.

16:06
Emmanuel Waters
If you look at the market right now, like, all the big distilleries are closing, the market is shrinking, and yet we seem to be hitting some growth. So I said, guys, sometimes we surviving is thriving, right? Can we ride this wave until things kind of mellow out? Right? And I think now consumers as a whole, right? With everything going on, they don't just want to drink or anything. They want something personal. And if you're not connecting with your consumers, you have something special, they'll just move on. There's just. It's so competitive.

16:33
Caitlin Bricker
Yes, that part.

16:35
Courtney Tucker
Yeah. That craft space is so niche right now. It's like, you know, you have to have a story behind what you're selling. Right. And so people immediately gravitate towards us because we're telling these great stories and we have this great bond in terms of our Friendship and our founder story, you know, it's incredible as well. So I think that's really what's driving us in this space is our storytelling ability and through our product, through our branding.

16:59
Caitlin Bricker
I do have touch on what Emmanuel is saying, because as founders, I think it's so important that you're putting yourselves out there and that you're letting your consumers know who you are. Because that connection piece, like you're saying, is so important that I used to be a buyer in personal care and cosmetics and the natural products industry. First thing I would do, I'd look at ingredients, I'd look at packaging, then I'd go right on the website and I go to about because I want to know your story. Like, what's the difference? Who are you? How passionate are you about what you're doing? And that is what is going to spark the difference between just a product and a product that you have a personal investment into, even if you're not part of the brand. And I think you know what you're doing.

17:42
Caitlin Bricker
You know what you're doing. You do. I mean, like, I can feel it. I mean, Emmanuel, you were saying, like, this wasn't your thing prior to this, but now it's your thing and this is something that is like in your blood now. And Courtney, for you, I really hope that your Instagram feed is elevated now that you're actually a Berman founder. I would love to see a side by side before and after.

18:06
Courtney Tucker
Absolutely, absolutely.

18:09
Caitlin Bricker
But it is really important that you're forging these connections with your customers. I think even I can speak for somebody like myself. I was grappling, not grappling, but I was trying to make the decision, do I quit drinking altogether or do I just keep going towards higher quality alcohol? Is that going to make me feel better? And you know what, it probably would. But I made the decision ultimately just to stop drinking. But I think these people who are kind of on that decision making path of do I keep drinking or do I go towards higher quality? They're going to look towards brands like Old Hillside Bourbon. Because you have that founder story, you have the history baked in. And it sounds like the quality that you're going for is not just your average bourbon on the well at a bar.

18:55
Caitlin Bricker
You're going for top shelf.

18:56
Emmanuel Waters
We're premium bourbon. We do have obviously a lower tier SKU with like 3999, but it's always been premium. And if you look at the market dynamics, right, you know, pretty much millennials and up are pretty much our Target Gen Z isn't really drinking that much. But I also think they haven't been through a lot. Wait till they get a little bit older and gone through a couple recessions that we have. I'm sure they'll start to drink a little bit more, you know. But to your point, you gotta have, you better have a niche, you better have a good story because it's literally too competitive, just to be quite honest with you, right? You better have something good. And then also, like you mentioned ingredients and whatnot. It took us almost 18 to 19 months to craft that first bourbon and the first label.

19:38
Emmanuel Waters
So we put a lot of investment into the juice and the packaging, right? We could have just easily came out with something. We could have got some six month juice and just slapped the label on it and went to work. And we could have easily got, for the sake of, you know, I'm a finance person. So our cogs could have been a lot cheaper if we had a got 350 bottles out of a barrel versus like 200. But you want that quality, right? You want somebody to be able to taste it, you know, and be like, okay, this is good.

20:03
Caitlin Bricker
And the quality also feeds into the storytelling. Courtney, you were mentioning how important the storytelling is. Can you tell me more about the history behind your brand? Emanuel touched on this briefly with Old Hillside. Can you tell me more about Old Hillside itself and what stories you're bringing into your brand today?

20:24
Courtney Tucker
Yeah, I mean, Emmanuel, tests on the black Wall street tie, right? And I think Hillside High School in itself is very historic for, you know, a lot of celebrities coming out here. Ernie Barnes, I'm thinking of Shirley Caesar, John P. Key. Like all these entertainers came from that area, right? In that small town, Durham, North Carolina. But there's a lot of powerful impact that was left throughout that community, right? And so it's a community, right? Hillside High School. It's not just the high school. It's a strong community in Durham, North Carolina. So when you say, you know anything about Hillside, it has to be like quality, right? It has to be like premium. It has to be like on point. Because folks are looking at you and they're like, hey, you better make our name, you know, make us proud, right?

21:09
Courtney Tucker
And so to that point, the community stands behind us. I think what sticks out to me is our first tasting, our first demo at ABC Store. We had a lion wrapped around the door, right? It was like were selling iPhones and it was like grandmothers, you know, aunties, uncles, they were just supporting us like, no Other. And then we. We're like the fastest selling bourbon in the state. Right. And so we broke a record.

21:35
Caitlin Bricker
Congrats.

21:36
Courtney Tucker
No, And I think, you know, that all speaks to how we intentionally crafted our product. Right. And so it's about community. It's about where we're from, you know, in terms of our heritage. And we just wanted to make our folks proud. Right. So we kind of didn't stop there, man. You mentioned that, Jesse. Into horse racing. And so we kind of looked at that space and we found out that African Americans dominated the sport of horse racing in the late 1800s. And so we took a deeper dive and we found like four black jockeys. And so we prominently put those on a bottle, our last rye bottle.

22:12
Caitlin Bricker
See what you did there?

22:13
Emmanuel Waters
Yeah.

22:14
Courtney Tucker
Isaac Murphy won the Kentucky Derby six times by the age of 16. Oliver Lewis was the first Kentucky Derby winner. First winner of the Kentucky Derby. Black man. So those stories are like kind of out there, but they're not being told. Right. And it's almost like they're sort of being erased. And so what we want to do as a brand is replace those stories. Every time one story is erased, we want to replace those stories. We want to get those stories out there. And so Emmanuel talks to him because he was interested in like the female jockeys. Right. And so he was like, what, three o' clock in the morning researching female jockeys. And he found three female jockeys that were prominent in that industry at that time. And so he wanted to celebrate them. Yeah.

22:55
Emmanuel Waters
So the success of the last ride was crazy. It was supposed to be one time thing. And then we're like, wow, we got something. And so I was just up at late in the night because I don't sleep now. And a lot of that was the company, less the kids. But as I was researching, I was like, I wonder if there's any women in the sport, because women we know are the backbone America. And if you know, black stories, I like to say, are buried beneath the surface. Black women are six feet beneath that is what I always say. And so we always ring the four. But so I found these three amazing women. Eliza Carpenter, Sylvia Bishop and Cheryl White, very pioneers of horse racing. I'm like, wow, black women, horse racing. These are 1920s.

23:29
Emmanuel Waters
Eliza was born a slave, like her stable on America first jockey. And so it took us about two years research finding the family. So in addition to making bourbon, I'm also now a researchist trying to find families and down and write emails and get the legal involved. But you fast forward to last year, we unveiled the bottle, our trifecta bottle, which I have here. You can see these amazing women on the story. What's interesting about these families, Celia Bishop and Cheryl White, specifically, these families actually knew each other's back in the 30s, 40s, and 50s, right? But they never met. They had never met. We have an event. We bring them out to California. We have a big event, a couple hundred people, and they met for the first time at our event.

24:13
Emmanuel Waters
And Ms. Laverne got up and talked about how her mother never received her flowers on Earth, but she received them that night, and she embraced Cheryl White's brother.

24:23
Caitlin Bricker
Don't make me cry. You see it?

24:26
Emmanuel Waters
There was not a dry eye in the building. It was that type of. And I got goosebumps and chills thinking about. I was like, guys, we are literally creating history. Nobody is doing this type of stuff. Now, granted, court can tell you had no money to throw the party. Bottles going wrong. We are an emerging brand, right? We don't have, like, this massive $100,000 marketing budget. Everything we're doing, we're going on like, the skin and scrape of our teeth. But it's so important for us that we want people to. We would just want to honor them, you know? And it was just. There were no words to describe it. It was literally. You had to be the moment.

25:00
Courtney Tucker
It was just.

25:01
Emmanuel Waters
I mean, when she just got up and spoke, I mean, everybody's in tears. I mean, there's no way to say it. Like, it was just, wow. It's like, these are the type of stories that we're doing and why I'm so passionate about it. So in my mind, I'm just like, this industry sucks. It's tough. Like, you know what I mean? But at the end of the day, if you have a good story, and I'll let you know, like, hey, give me some space on your shelf. Because you're literally bringing history onto yourself. And the same thing that we're doing now on this year. Have you ever heard of the Harlem Hellfighters?

25:28
Caitlin Bricker
No, unfortunately, I'll be totally honest. I haven't. Please tell me.

25:33
Emmanuel Waters
Yeah, we're the very first African American unit to fight in World War I. You know, in that time, early 1900s, like, they weren't even allowed to be in the same unit as some of the white counterparts. They actually fought for France. So they're before the Tuskegee Airmen. We unveiled a bottle about them, and they were on the front lines for 191 days, the longest in American unit history. So we took our bourbon, we aged it for a total of 191 days, and we finished it in French Pinot Noir wine barrels, which is the region of France that they fought in, Right? And then we aged it and proofed it at 112. Because they were the Men of Bronze. They're one unit fighting one enemy for two countries. Thus the proof, 112. Everything that we do, we're letting the stories create our bourbon, right?

26:17
Emmanuel Waters
That's something we can hang our hat on. And it's really good juice as well,

26:20
Caitlin Bricker
You know, so I'm like, okay, so do I break my sobriety now or.

26:29
Courtney Tucker
Oh, my God.

26:30
Emmanuel Waters
You know, so these are the type of things that we're doing and we're proud to say, you know, we've gotten pushed back on it. Right? Like, maybe you guys shouldn't go down that hole, you know, and kind of pigeonhole yourselves right, in a space that is, you know, predominantly white. Right? You shouldn't. You shouldn't be the black brand. But if we don't tell our history, who will?

26:47
Caitlin Bricker
I mean, you're talking about the erasure of these people, and now you're giving a literal physical object that a retailer can then put on their shelf that somebody can take home with them and spread the word. Like, even if you're not in this for money, the impact that you're making. I don't think anybody's ever made me cry on camera before. I am just, like, I'm beside myself right now. The storytelling that you're able to weave into this product, like, you genuinely are making history right now, and you're able to tell other people's story through your product. This is crazy to me. And it's so well done. Like, you're. Not that I was expecting it not to be well done, but everything from your website, like, I was like, oh, okay, like, my scroll isn't working right now.

27:36
Caitlin Bricker
No, you're making me sit there and watch this story unfold. I was like, okay, it's getting ahead of myself. But no, like, everything is just so. You really put true thought into this. And you can tell through your product, you can tell through you as founders, the people that you're bringing in. I mean, that story that you just told about bringing these families together is so powerful. I think retailers who are selling alcohol would be doing themselves a serious disservice not to have your products on the shelves.

28:07
Courtney Tucker
Absolutely.

28:08
Emmanuel Waters
Your words to God's ears. Yeah, we tell them all the time. I mean, but look, it's crowded. I Mean, you got pretty much these little small, little tiny shelves, and bourbon is just. I mean, my God, right? Burgundy category is massive. So how do you hit that space? So we always like to leave with the story. But look, in the day, we literally have to keep fighting, right? I think that's what we have to do. And it's mentioned earlier, this has been like the hardest fight personally of my life to leave something that was corporate America, which I think, to me, I always say, regardless of the input, you always get the same output. I mean, you get paid on the 1st and 15, right? You know, to leave something that was pretty much, I would say now, low.

28:47
Emmanuel Waters
In retrospect, I think it was easy, right? And didn't do this to where you literally.

28:51
Caitlin Bricker
A safe option.

28:52
Emmanuel Waters
For sure, it's a safe option, right? And even, you know, to your point, trying to raise capital, if you are African American and you are a woman and you are trying to raise capital, it is dang near impossible, just to be quite honest with you. We get something last year, $3 billion, we got 0.002% of VC capital that went on in America. You see, I'm big on stats. It's sad, right? It's like, holy moly, we're not getting anything. And. And that's across every industry, whether it's spirits, whether it's production, whether it is tech, AI. Like, that is America's story. And so. But it's crazy because diversity works like that is the engine that keeps America going. So why is it on attack is. Is beyond me. But in the day, you know, we don't need your sympathy.

29:37
Emmanuel Waters
We just want you to hear our stories. And we're going to keep building regardless, right? And it's tough.

29:41
Caitlin Bricker
And maybe cut a check or two.

29:46
Emmanuel Waters
We will take your check. You know, but those people out there, I mean, we've had to, you know, outside of one investor, we've literally had to bootstrap it for the last six years. This is very capital intensive market, right? We know nothing else. So it's funny because I'll call Corey and be like, you'll just be like, what else is new,

30:05
Courtney Tucker
Right? We're built for this in terms of just kind of that struggle piece, right? Because we've always had to fight for what we wanted, right? We always had to fight for a seat at the table. So this is par for the course for us. And I think that's what makes us unique, is because we're all along the same mindset, right? Emmanuel spent years in corporate. I'm 25 years in. And so, as you can imagine, the battles that we've gone through internally, to be heard, to be seen, right? And so this all falls within that. It's like, hey, we don't stop, we don't quit, we don't give up. And I think if we keep going, put one foot in front of the other and we'll get there, right? And so I think that's our motto, is that we just don't quit. Just keep going.

30:48
Courtney Tucker
I think, you know, I always say this company's ordained, right? And it's something that, you know, is happening outside of us. Like, we're not driving this. Someone has a higher power driving what we're doing. And because it's so meaningful. And so when we look at situations like we had with our party and bringing those folks together, those families together, and like, for the first time, like, that for me was confirmation, hey, we're doing the right thing, you know, no matter what we're going through in terms of the struggle, being seen and being heard and being visible on the mainstream, like, these stories make sense. These stories are enough for us. And so once these stories hit mainstream, sky's the limit, right? And so once the right folks find out about our brand, the sky's the limit. So we just have to keep going.

31:33
Caitlin Bricker
I get the sense that both of you feel fulfilled, even if tomorrow was the last day for your business. It sounds like you have done what you wanted to do.

31:44
Courtney Tucker
Absolutely. And we had this conversation. What? Yes, a couple of days ago. What's the end goal? What are we trying to accomplish? What's the end goal? Who are we? What's our identity? We're a storytelling brand. We're not just a spirit brand. We're a storytelling brand. And these stories that we're telling are important. You know, these are American stories, right? It's not just African American stories. These are American stories, you know, and so we take a lot of pride into tell those stories effectively with care, right? And so that's who we are.

32:13
Caitlin Bricker
I could talk to you guys for hours. If you ever decide to publish a history book, call me because I'd be the first one placing a pre sale order. I'm just like, I'm blown away by what you're building. I am so touched by the story at the party. That is just like, wow, I said this already. But retailers would be doing themselves a disservice by not carrying your products. So if there are retailers listening right now, what do each of you have to say to them about your products? And why should they carry them?

32:47
Emmanuel Waters
First of all, we have great juice. Let's start there.

32:50
Courtney Tucker
Great product quality, premium product at a great price.

32:54
Emmanuel Waters
In the day, if you want something different, consumers are tired of boring drinks on the shelves. At the end of the day, they are tired of doing the same old. So if you want a true great craft brand that brings history, heritage, and homage in every bottle, give us a call. That's really it. You know, California, specifically California. Hawaii, Kentucky, North Carolina. And we just opened up Alabama, Mississippi. We're not even in, like, all America. We're just. We're small, right. We're still niche. We're still learning the market. Our strategy was to go deep before went wide.

33:25
Courtney Tucker
Right.

33:26
Emmanuel Waters
We want to know what works, what consumers are saying. And the feedback that we got is they're liking it. Right. And so now, you know, got to raise somebody to scale. But that'll come eventually. We don't want to go too fast. You've seen what happens when you grow too fast too soon, lose control.

33:41
Courtney Tucker
And there's a lot of meat on the bone to, like Emmanuel said, we haven't really touched scratch the surface of kind of where we should be. Bars, restaurants, hotels. We still have to get in those spaces as well. So, yeah, we've got a lot of room to grow.

33:54
Caitlin Bricker
Well, I am super excited for you guys. I think 2026 will hopefully be your year. For everybody who's listening right now and wants to get their hands on some old Hillside Bourbon, where can they find you online? And what's your Instagram handle? And maybe Courtney, if your feed is up to date, you can drop your Instagram handle too.

34:17
Courtney Tucker
It's not about me. You know, if you can just follow our website. Our website, Follow our Instagram. oldhillsidebourboncompany.com is our website. oldhillsidebourbonco Instagram, Facebook, and then also LinkedIn.

34:30
Caitlin Bricker
Old Hillside Bourbon Company thank you guys so much. This has been such a pleasure talking to you. I am, like I said, so excited for your brand. I cannot wait for more people to learn about you, what you've done, what you're doing, where you're going. I'm excited.

34:45
Courtney Tucker
Thanks for having us. We appreciate you.

34:48
Emmanuel Waters
Thank you.

34:48
Caitlin Bricker
We'll talk soon. CPG BFFs. We've now arrived together at the end of another episode of the Startup CPG podcast. As you may know, we're not just the top globally ranked CPG podcast. We're a community of tens of thousands of CPG founders and experts. And you should join us if you haven't already. Head to startupcpg.com to sign up. You'll get an invite to our Slack community, hear about events near you, and you get access to opportunities that connect you with buyers, investors and other brands. It's free. So what are you waiting for? I'll see you in Slack and in real life. Thanks for listening.