The Startup CPG Podcast

Hayden Williams
You have to figure out who is our customer. Is there some cohort of people who are obsessed with our product? Because without that there's no point. And so you have to figure out who is our customer and really develop really explicit Personas, give them names, give them what do they do, what do they buy and how do we market to them? Because then everything should flow through that. So you can't have to succeed in retail. They really leaned into that kind of the beauty playbook as far as end caps and side caps and fixtures and clear call us. None of that stuff will work. If you don't know who your consumer is, you need to be very explicitly messaging about what do they care about?

00:50
Hannah Dittman
Hey everyone. I'm Hannah Dittman, operations and finance, host of the Startup CPG podcast. And and today I'm excited to be joined by Hayden Williams of BrandProject. Hayden is a partner behind BrandProject's distinctive approach to consumer investing, with a particular focus on backing brands pre launch, often before there's a product name or even a fully formed company. Brandproject is known for leaning in early and partnering closely with founders to help shape not just the business, but the brand consumer experience and long term vision. From day one, Hayden brings a rare mix of empathy and conviction with experience in the founder seat, functionality, finance and a long standing focus on consumer investing.

01:27
Hannah Dittman
In this episode, we unpack the story of Wonderbelly, a brand project portfolio company that was just acquired by P and G. Hayden shares what drove conviction so early, including clear founder market fit, a strong problem solution in a timely category, and the opportunity to rethink an overlook space. We also dive into the pillars of prelaunch fundraising, the role of consumer psychology and world building, what company dynamics attracts strategic interest and what the investor founder dynamic really looks like after the check clears. If you're a founder thinking about raising before launch, pressure testing your positioning, or curious how early investors evaluate ideas before traction exists, this conversation offers a practical look behind the curtain. Enjoy. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Startup CPG podcast. This is Hannah and today I'm here with Hayden Williams, an investor from Brand Project. Hayden, welcome to the show.

02:23
Hayden Williams
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

02:24
Hannah Dittman
Yeah. We're so excited to have you here today and to be chatting. I'd love to start off with getting a brief background of your career, the path that led you to Brand project and your title role and what you're doing there now.

02:37
Hayden Williams
Yes, sure. So I grew up in a small town in Maine called Cape Elizabeth. Growing up, I was really into sales, so I sold knives to Ridor in high school. In college, I started a business selling ads to local businesses. And then out of school, my first job was investment banking. And I had the good timing to graduate in June 2008. So at the height of the global financial crisis, which was three months after Bear Stearns collapsed and three months before Lehman Brothers went down, and I was in the financial institutions group covering banks specifically. So it was a crazy time to be covering banks and. But ultimately, throughout that experience, I realized I wanted to try out building, not just advising.

03:17
Hayden Williams
So after three and a half years in banking, I left to start a consumer tech company with one of my best friends. So we bootstrapped that business. So we moved in. One bedroom apartment, we got bunk beds, we worked out of the NYU libraries, we did the whole thing. And ultimately that company was not successful. But certainly, if nothing else, I bring some empathy into the investor role, knowing just how impossible it is to start a business. So after that I transitioned into venture in a role at BBG Ventures, which at the time was investing in mostly consumer companies, all with at least one female founder. Their focus has since expanded a bit, but it's still run by Susan and Nisha. And they were incredible mentors for me, really showed me what it's like to be great partners of founders.

03:59
Hayden Williams
And so that then brings me to Brand Project, where I've been for seven years. Our team is split between Toronto and New York. I'm here in New York, in the city, and we invest in consumer companies at their various very early stages and happy to go as far into that as you'd like.

04:15
Hannah Dittman
Yeah, I would love to also get the firm overview and learn more about Brand Project and what you guys are focusing on there. Things like, you know, your mandate, differentiation criteria, stage, check size, all the good stuff that. That can give us context for the rest of this conversation.

04:30
Hayden Williams
Yes. So Brand Project was founded in 2013 and we've always focused on early stage, always focused on consumer and consumer. To us, that's consumer products, consumer services and consumer tech. And we really invest in companies as early as possible. So our typical check size ranges from 1 to 3 million. We'll invest across consumer, but we spend especially a lot of time in consumer health and wellness, especially backing founders who are modernizing and destigmatizing legacy categories. And as far as our biggest differentiation, I'd say it's how much we love pre launch. So we'll invest anywhere from pre C to series A. More than half of our investments have been in companies before they've launched and that's what we love.

05:13
Hayden Williams
So our team are former founders and former operators, so we can get pretty tactical and really help as extensions of the founding team in the early days, whether that's acting as a temporary CFO or cto. And since we only invest in a couple companies every year, that's why we have the bandwidth to lean in that way.

05:33
Hannah Dittman
Yeah, that's such helpful context and it is a huge differentiator. I feel like a lot of people kind of cooled off of the pre launch consumer category in general. Like obviously the market since COVID and after the recovery has been kind of like all over the place in consumer. It's been changing a lot. Funds coming in and out, mandates changing LPs kind of putting pressure in certain areas. So I think it's awesome that you guys have really leaned in and stayed true to kind of your North Star and where you find your power lanes in focus. Really helpful context. And when you're saying early stage, that's not pre launch. What kind of revenue sizes are you talking about in those cases?

06:13
Hayden Williams
So I would say the largest companies that we've invested in were maybe they were going to do a couple million and it would be typically in that first year where we would invest because yeah, nothing's too early, but certainly plenty would be too late. We always prefer to get in as early as possible. So certainly we have invested in seed rounds and even a couple series A rounds where when we invested maybe they were doing a couple hundred thousand dollars in monthly revenue. But that's really the exception for us. Typically as far earlier.

06:42
Hannah Dittman
Very helpful context. Yeah. So you guys really are on that kind of like really far end of the venture capital spectrum and super helpful to understand. You also had some really amazing news come out recently, Hayden, with the Wonderbelly acquisition. So congratulations. Very exciting for you all, I'm sure. I would love to kind of dive into understanding a little bit of that, the dynamics of that investment for you all and kind of use it as a case study to both shed some light on your firm and how you operate, but also some common questions that come up in fundraising and founder journeys. It would be awesome to kind of start with the initial pitch and investment dynamics especially, you know, what was compelling and resonated and really helped you guys create conviction in the investment.

07:26
Hannah Dittman
I think oftentimes that is the first challenge founders fundraising start facing is crafting that narrative and how to think about going and embarking on this fundraising journey and how to communicate and what's important to communicate so I'd love to start there.

07:41
Hayden Williams
Yes, it's a great case study. It is topical and serendipitous as it was just publicly announced yesterday. And it just so happened that we had this conversation.

07:51
Hannah Dittman
The universe wanted us to talk about this.

07:53
Hayden Williams
I know, I know. But it is a great case study and I have been just reflecting on it given it was just publicly announced yesterday. The transaction only went through at the beginning this month of Wonderbelly's sale to P and G. So, yeah, so I first met Noah and Lucas, the founders, in October 2021. So at that time, they didn't have a product and they didn't even have a company name, but really loved their vision to create a modern, clean label digestive health brand offering a full suite of medicine. So they planned on the roadmap. They would start with antacid, but then expand into gas and upset stomach relief and really reimagining the products without the artificial dyes and talc or unnecessary additives that all the other products on the shelf had.

08:38
Hayden Williams
So at the time, the company was called Ginger Health, which if you're looking at two pictures of Noah and Lucas, you'd understand they both have red hair. And then the placeholder name for the first product was Aunt Acid, which should tell you something about their sense of humor. But yeah.

08:56
Hannah Dittman
So creative branding minds.

08:58
Hayden Williams
That's right. So now if you look at the brand and you know, even just what I saw pre launch of Ginger Health with two redheads who were launching Aunt Acid, they already had the makings to shake up pretty boring industry. At that prelaunch stage, there's not much to diligence. So we really focused on the team and the market. And so as far as the team, they're brothers, if I didn't mention, really the inspiration behind the brand was that Lucas was building around a problem that he'd been managing personally for years. And so as he's discussed publicly, he had past struggles with an eating disorder that left him with lasting permanent digestive damage that really made him reliant on antacids. But he hated at the products that he relied on.

09:40
Hayden Williams
Cough tums really had dyes and all this artificial talc and stuff that had nothing to do with the efficacy. So he said, why is this here? I just want this to work. I don't need all this other stuff. And then Noah, his brother, was a repeat founder who'd already taken a consumer product from idea to market. So they really had that founder market fit. And then on the market side, if you would walk through the aisle in retail. Back then, retail shelves were full of new flashy brands and beauty and personal care. But the gut health aisle really felt frozen in time. And probably our grandparents would have recognized it because not much had changed. So there'd been no formulation innovation, no modern brand.

10:19
Hayden Williams
So we really love the master brand potential because there wasn't a modern gut health brand, just a bunch of one off products where the formulation hadn't changed in a long time.

10:28
Hannah Dittman
That's such helpful context. And I think you said that narrative in such a way that I feel like really highlights some core principles in really early stage investing that oftentimes investors bring up as the biggest conviction pillars they need, which is a problem, compelling problem solution, a market with like the right time to build essentially. You know, you hear that a lot. And I think for founders a lot of times that can be like, what does that actually mean? Like, do I go to a fortune teller? How do I know what's the right time? And I think the way you articulated it was really nice, which is there wasn't a lot of disruption on the aisle. Gut health was kind of in the peripheral learnings for a lot of people.

11:10
Hannah Dittman
It was becoming topical for a lot of people without a clear solution or better options that they could go access. People are kind of as the founders were making their band aid homemade solutions because there wasn't something readily available. And oftentimes you're thinking too, I'm sure in some capacity, if the founder has this problem, they can't be the only one. This must be a more broad problem and there will be some form of a customer base there. You also have referenced tums, which is I think an amazing way to think as well, which is a lot of investors think in kind of a case study mindset. They need something to kind of anchor on, to wrap their head around quickly how a brand is operating and what the scaling journey in the future might be like.

11:53
Hannah Dittman
I think as much as people would like to assume investors have crystal balls, they don't. But they have awesome pattern recognition and an ability to pull from a broad swath of information and kind of create frameworks and ecosystems to think in. And I think having those pillars of an aisle that was ready to be disrupted, a big incumbent brand that wasn't doing anything really innovative anymore, but had a big market share, founders with a compelling story, a good background, seasoned as well with a good problem solution, a mission that they were chasing, it makes sense. And in hindsight I'm sure it's also easy to make Sense. But even at the onset, you can see how that would make so much sense for an investor to get behind.

12:34
Hayden Williams
Yeah, you would have written a check, right? How could you not? And we actually ended up wiring the money the same month that we met them. That was just how compelling it was that within weeks we quickly kind of got up to speed and got conviction. Quickly. And so, yeah, it was. We were very excited to be involved.

12:52
Hannah Dittman
Yeah. So let's double click on your involvement as an investor. So you're meeting them pre product, they're telling you, we have an idea, we need money to get a product together or to get this really going. Obviously, the diligence was relatively quick, given it was more of an idea. And you kind of getting comfortable with that and them. What happens then? Like, what was the ask and what was your involvement as an investor? And kind of walk me through the story of what the journey after the investment was like, what was the relationship like and how was the company growing and evolving over time?

13:21
Hayden Williams
Yeah, sure. So very explicitly, they were raising on a safe. We wrote the largest check into that safe, which then closed it out and then they had the money to start developing the product. So it was all about R and D and brand building because again, they didn't even have a name back then. And so. And even just in the first couple months, and by the way, I should mention. So this was in October and the plan all along was to launch in. In June and they were going to raise around before launch, but it was unclear when that would happen. So immediately following investment, there was R and D. They're developing the brand.

13:54
Hayden Williams
And even just in those couple of months, they were doing everything that they said that they were going to do in such a way that we wanted to make sure that we led that the seed round. And so actually in January, we then invested more capital into a seed round. And the idea for that was to have enough money to ultimately launch the brand, which happened, I believe, in June of 2022. So first couple of months were development, brand development, and then it was buying inventory. Then it was getting ready to launch D2C. So we launched in June. And D2C launch is all about figuring out, do people care? Who cares? And let's find more of them, hopefully as cheaply as possible.

14:33
Hayden Williams
So we found as an example that their core consumers keep female, with pregnant women being a meaningful driver of demand because they cared deeply about clean ingredients and also had heightened heartburn. And then just overall, that D2C launch really validated that people wanted a Medicine that worked, but was cleaner. So after that and scaling D2C, then everyone understands that ultimately these types of products will be sold in retail, not D2C, because when you need them, you can't wait for a couple days for the courier to come by. And so they did a really great job of executing the D2C to retail transition. And so they got a PO to launch, do an exclusive launch of Target.

15:15
Hayden Williams
And so ahead of that launch of Target, they raised a seed extension which we led and Ultra Baden, the great firm, the Venture Collective, who came in with us, and then it was into retail and then it was expanding into more doors and more SKUs and. And all that good stuff.

15:30
Hannah Dittman
This is like just a perfectly executed and planned company growth story. I mean, really just kind of like hitting all.

15:37
Hayden Williams
No problems.

15:38
Hannah Dittman
Yeah, I'm like, you're hitting. And the quick lead times too. I'm like, you're hitting all the major milestones just at the right time. Like, I mean, wow. Impressive. From the investor side, what was kind of your role and experience working alongside this company? I think, and I'm asking because I think a lot of times founders have a lot of questions around that, what does it mean to bring on an investor to my company? What does that actually change for my day to day and my experience working with them? Is this my boss? Are we going to have weekly calls? Am I going to be able to make decisions? What was the actual working relationship like during this time and along this journey?

16:16
Hayden Williams
Sure. So the way that we work with any individual company is completely depending on the company and their stage and the way that they would like to work with us. And you know, as I think I mentioned, for some companies we might be their temporary CFO or CTO and we could have weekly calls and all this stuff for a period of time and that could change. Specifically here what they were really interested in, because Noah had built a company before, so he had lots of operational experience, he'd raised money before, but this was their first time in cpg. And what Noah and Lucas are good about is soliciting feedback and perspectives. And the decision is always theirs to make. But this was their first time doing it. And we've invested in many DTC brands that then transitioned into retail.

16:59
Hayden Williams
And so a lot of the way that we could be helpful, I think we had monthly calls and then we would catch up in between that. Their direction was just giving perspective for what works, what doesn't work. How can we focus on making original mistakes and not repeating others? And which retailer should we choose how do we get the best deal? And so we could just share perspectives from what worked and what didn't work with other companies, given we are so closely involved with specifically consumer brands. And then a lot of work, a lot of help on fundraising. Again, for founders who are listening and looking at this great headline of the story, this was not an easy business to raise money for. Early on, even every successive milestone, you know, it got easier, but it was tough.

17:39
Hayden Williams
And so I guess founders should know that was the case here, even with you can wrap everything into the package of what a great story it was and up and to the right. But it was challenging for them as well. So, yeah, were just being as supportive as we could.

17:52
Hannah Dittman
Yeah, I'm sure even for investors, raising their own funds from limited partners or going through things like asking people for big amounts of money is always hard, no matter what the capacity is. It is hard and it's emotionally taxing, too. It's a. Not a typical experience that many people have in other aspects of their life ever. And so you're kind of thrown into, like a very foreign objective with really high stakes and a lot of work needing to be going in alongside that and outside of that to. To keep everything going and to make headway there. So, yeah, a lot of respect for all the founders out there hustling and working hard and getting it done and on their journey or thinking about getting into their journey. It is.

18:40
Hannah Dittman
I don't think there's a single person who has ever said the line, fundraising is easy. So I.

18:46
Hayden Williams
It is not easy. Not easy. It's not fun. Yeah. I think if I could recommend these to people, sell knives door to door. As I mentioned, I did that one summer. If you think that fundraising is uncomfortable, you know, knock on a stranger's door with a bag of knives and ask to be let in and tell them why they should buy your knives. I mean, I haven't probably thought about knives in years.

19:06
Hannah Dittman
I promise I'm not a serial killer. I'm just. It's here for the kitchen. Yeah. I had the pleasure of Girl Scout cookies, I think were a lot more readily received. I do think the Girl Scout cookie route is a little bit easier.

19:18
Hayden Williams
I think so.

19:19
Hannah Dittman
Okay. So they, like, went through quite the fundraising journey. Obviously, you mentioned a couple of milestones that they hit along the way. Obviously, breaking into retail, I'm sure was one of them. I'm sure getting the product launched and all of that was another one, you know, reflecting back now especially that they had such a successful exit and it kind of is like the picture perfect ending for what you would hope for. A CPG company. Like a strategic exit is kind of like in many people's minds like the best outcome that you can get for you. What do you think were the most important milestones and pacing of those milestones along the way that help them be attractive target for a strategic exit and maybe like where were funds and proceeds used to help drive those milestones as well?

20:05
Hayden Williams
Yeah. So you have to figure out who is our customer. Is there some cohort of people who are obsessed with our product? Because without that there's no point. And so you have to figure out who is our customer and really develop really explicit Personas, give them names, give them what do they do, what do they buy and how do we market to them? Because then everything should flow through that. So you can't have to succeed in retail. They really leaned into that kind of the beauty playbook as far as end caps and side caps and fixtures and clear call us. None of that stuff will work. If you don't know who your consumer is. You need to be very explicitly messaging about what do they care about.

20:44
Hayden Williams
And so we knew why people were buying Wonderbellies because of what it didn't have in it versus what it had in it. And so then the packaging needs to explain that because the only way you'll be successful in retail is if your packaging is screaming this up. Because ultimately, you know, after the DTC launch, after your friends and family try it and give you pats in the back, you need strangers who are walking in an aisle to be arrested, to see something and stop in their tracks and to buy it when they're busy and they have heartburn and they were discomp. There's a sea of Tums and there's a few Wonderbelly products here. They don't have time for you. And so you really need to stand out. You only have a second. And it's all the work that leads up to that.

21:21
Hayden Williams
The D2C, the branding, the talking to customers that really can lead to that ultimate outcome of having something that consumers love that can turn into a master brand. Because they love the cleaner Antacid and now they love their, the cleaner version of Pepto Bismol they have. And now they love the cleaner version of Gas X. And there's trust and really that they built. They were part of a conversation in Gut Health that the incumbents were not. And that was some of the white space there of Gut Health is something that would only be talked about behind closed doors, there's a stigma and while certainly everyone or many people are relying on these products, they're not talking about it. But Wonderbelly really started a conversation.

21:56
Hayden Williams
And you know, at the time Tums, which again is like a hundred year old brand, I think they had 2,000 Instagram followers. Certainly no presence on TikTok or anything like that. But the opportunity to be part of this conversation bring some humor and levity to it. That was something that it's going to be hard for a strategic to do that. That's just not their domain expertise. But if you can do it, then you can have a strong interest to buy.

22:18
Hannah Dittman
Yeah, and I think that's kind of like the art and the science in CPG as well. The last point that you're touching on, obviously the science is like figuring out the unit economics, making sure all of these like fundamentals make sense, making sure the product development is amazing and product is where it needs to be and the formulation is where it needs to be and all those things. I think the art is really understanding consumer psychology and branding and brand communication in a way that helps cut through the noise. I think, you know, a big difference between tech and consumer is that in like B2B sales for instance, you're not climbing that mountain necessarily. You know, no one necessarily is caring about the psychology of all of this. They're really like just wanting to make sure it works.

23:07
Hannah Dittman
But in consumer it's like problem one, make sure it works. Of course, problem two, make sure like the emotional resonance, the clarity, the attention, all of those other things are coming to you. And I think Wonderbelly has done a fantastic job with that. And better for you especially. I think there's kind of like two lanes you can go very like very organic, green, like Zen kind of vibe, or you can go like very fun and branded in a direction that feels the way that original brands typically feel. And I think an amazing choice for them to kind of like really create a brand world and ecosystem.

23:48
Hannah Dittman
And I think brands that do that typically have such stronger legs to stand on because it resonates so strongly with consumers and they buy into that world and they feel proud in a way to make that purchase or like it fills up some positive emotion more than just oh, this is good for me. And it's also fun. And I think that matters a lot.

24:07
Hayden Williams
Totally. Yeah. You know, strategics want what they can't easily build and authentic consumer trust is one of those things. So if they can innovate they could have done the formulation that Wonderbelly had, but it was the all the stuff around it that was so critical to have authenticity and transparency and trust with consumers.

24:27
Hannah Dittman
Great point. We're touching on a core pillar of what Strategics are looking for, which is brand authenticity, a customer base that's really passionate about something. What else do strategics look for in acquisition targets? Maybe within Wonderbelly but more broadly your perspective as well, is there certain unit economics, revenue scale, distribution channels, like maybe more qualitative things that need to be right for them to get excited about potential target? What are your thoughts on that?

24:55
Hayden Williams
So I think it depends on the category. And for distribution, it's rarely retail distribution that a strategically care about because usually they have that covered. Now in some categories where D2C is a big opportunity, most strategics aren't great with D2C and so if it's in a category where There's a big D2C potential and a company brings that, then that can be very attractive. That wasn't the case for Wonderbelly, given it's just not a category that makes sense to really lean on D2C. But so distribution was not as much a factor here, although it could be for other categories. I'd say really what they want aside from brand.

25:30
Hayden Williams
Like one of the good things with Wonder Bell, one of the interesting things about it and things that are attracted by this and other categories have it as well is if you go to the gut health aisle and there's all the products that we all know and there's Rolates and Tums and Pepto, Bismol and Gas X and all these things. There's many different Strategics in the aisle. There's you know, PNG and GSK and Halion. And so first of all, no Strategic owns all of the products and even more importantly, there's no master brand. So if you're going to build a new brand, you really want a brand block because it's hard to have just one product and have people stop there. But if you can do that and build the trust where if people like one product they want more, that's a great opportunity.

26:11
Hayden Williams
Especially with Wonderbelly that did not exist in the aisle is they can have all these different categories that I mentioned that there should be a wonderbelly version and to have that opportunity for P and G where they can now compete in these categories where they weren't previously yet they're right next to their existing products on the shelf is a great thing. And it's Also, just tons of tailwinds for Wonder Belly at the moment, given a lot of the ingredients that they don't have in their products are actually getting legislated out of these products, given what's going on in Washington right now. So, yeah, for them, it was all about the opportunity for a master brand that had built trust, that was going after younger consumers who, as I said before, don't necessarily want to buy the same products that their parents. Parents were buying.

26:52
Hannah Dittman
That's really helpful. Color and perspective. I'd love to kind of pivot into some lessons learned either on Wonderbelly or more broadly, maybe when times were tough or there was some stumbles along the road as you all were building this and advising this. What are some things looking back on that you feel like you will carry forward as learnings because of that or that you think other operators or founders should keep in mind and learn from either things that went right or things that didn't go right or ways certain challenges were handled that you feel like stuck with you.

27:25
Hayden Williams
Grit and perseverance, I think, are two kind of things that any founder is going to need. You can come from a variety of different backgrounds. Some of our very successful founders have been in this space for a decade. Some have never been in this space, as was the case with Noah and Lucas. There's different ways to get there, but just having grit is so critical. But then also specifically for Wonder Belly, I've kind of mentioned this, but I think just we look back at why it's such a good brand. It was that sense of humor and levity and not taking himself too seriously that really came across in the first meeting. And it's not that I was like, oh, these guys are funny. We should invest.

28:03
Hayden Williams
But if you actually look at this brand and what they brought to the category, that was pretty stale. It's so much about how they were bringing levity to issues that, you know, there's nothing less sexy than the products in this category. And so I think so many of the. The great brands out there, that's what they do. They. They bring not just authenticity but fun into the last aisle or category that you'd expect it from. And so we'd be on an investor call with Noah and Lucas. We'd be hearing about how Lucas is working on a book called An Adult's Guide to Farts. You know, and, like, this is incredible. Like, what a way to be. Like, you know, this is that noise.

28:43
Hannah Dittman
Yeah.

28:44
Hayden Williams
This is why they're getting into Walmart and expanding. It's because they're doing this stuff that sounds crazy, but it's funny and it's interesting and it's helpful and helps build community. And those are, you know, some of the things that it just so happened here. Not only were they just having a cool brand in aisle that didn't have them, but doing all the stuff around it to really bring people together and make them smile.

29:04
Hannah Dittman
Yeah, that's great. Reflections and I think there's a lot of other successful big brands that I think you can pull a lot of parallels from that universe, building from that authenticity like you're mentioning deeply, intimately, just kind of eat, sleep and breathing the problem solution that they're solving and who might be interacting with that journey along the way as they're going through the consumer purchasing and usage process. Obviously, as an investor you have holding periods. You're not with a company for hopefully for the rest of your life. So from the investor side, what happens, you know, when you get into a company? How long is your holding period typically? And then what happens for you as the investor when something exits?

29:44
Hayden Williams
So across the board, I would say holding periods are getting longer. But I mean, especially for us, we invest pre launch, so we're always going to have the longest holding period because sometimes we get in a year before the company even launches. But when things do culminate in an exit like this was a very, you know, sometimes there are, you know, mergers or there's kind of weird different structures where you're actually still involved in some way. But this is a pretty clean acquisition as far as P and G. So we're out of the investment by now.

30:16
Hayden Williams
And so from a wonderbelly perspective, it was relatively quick given it was just over a little more than four years, which is definitely faster than average in, you know, we have great companies that we've been invested in for seven plus years because a lot of times the most successful we'll have the longest holding periods. Sometimes the opposite is true, but just because you're holding it for a long time, it's not a sign that's absolutely great or not great. So yeah, in general, hold periods are extending and it's all about being as supportive as we can until we get to a point like this with Wonderbelly.

30:47
Hayden Williams
And at this point I hope that Noah and Lucas, I know they're going to be staying on at P and G for a period of time, but if and when that they start another company, that will be where we pick this back up because hopefully we'll be the first Partners for them again.

30:59
Hannah Dittman
Yeah. What a vote of confidence in the relationship. And I'm sure you would be when you're thinking about the market now. What's exciting for you moving forward in the future as this kind of singular chapter came to a close with this other portfolio company.

31:13
Hayden Williams
Yeah, so I would love to do something else in clean medicine or otc and especially and importantly in a category like gut health in an aisle that's not just a wash and new brand. So I had long before they exited, I would tell people I would love to do the Wonder Belly, but in a different aisle. Something where that's been overlooked, that has a stigma, that's unsexy. That's the stuff that we love. So that's an area of interest, the trend that everyone is well aware of people being on GLP1s and you know, we have a company called Everself that's also helping people lose weight, although without medication rapidly for these consumers. There's been a lot of companies that are doing, you know, the protein and everything trend, but we're interested in beauty and personal care.

32:02
Hayden Williams
What are the products that help people as their bodies are changing rapidly. You have protein, but there's also ramifications and also things that happen to your body when you do lose weight like that. So what are the products and services and you know, the second wave effects and hair and skin and muscle and gut health and then really anything with defensibility. It's not often that you see CPG products that have true IP or defensibility, but when they come along, it's super interesting.

32:30
Hannah Dittman
Thank you so much for sharing that. I feel like, yeah, really sharp thoughts and insights and I think interesting to see how your mind works and call to action. For any founders out there building that, then that might be a good fit for you. I'd love to take some time to pivot into a slack question. As you know, startup CPG has the largest slack community in the industry with now over 35,000 members. I'd love to pull a question directly from our channel and have you answer it as a case study for any founders that might have a similar question. The question for today is what does an operating budget need to include?

33:05
Hayden Williams
So obviously an operating budget should cover the basics, but really it should be a living, breathing strategic document, not just a spreadsheet. So of course you have financial statement basics and revenue and gross margin and operating expenses and working capital. But on top of that, and especially for D2C businesses that we invest a lot in, weave in, you know, weekly cohort data because CAC and retention really should, they should drive really every strategic decision. And so we will always have bear and bull scenarios for CAC and retention so that we can always have a very realistic view of cash runaway because that's the output for these is Runway, but you want to really stress test it and look at a variety of different scenarios so that you can be making decisions with kind of as much transparency as possible.

34:00
Hannah Dittman
Really helpful and tactical insight there. Thank you so much. Well, Hayden, this has been such an amazing conversation. I feel so fortunate that we got to kind of look through your eyes on Wonderbelly and also more broadly as an investor and hear a lot of really exciting thoughts, takeaways and lessons learned and get a peek behind the curtain of the journey. You have a ton of actionable insights. I think for people to kind of start thinking about their own brand building and their own fundraising journey and narratives that I think the audience would of course enjoy. But for founders that might want to get in touch with you, where can they find you or what's the best way for them to get in contact?

34:36
Hannah Dittman
And then secondly for operators looking to transition or other people interested in getting into investing, what advice would you have for them?

34:44
Hayden Williams
Sure. So my email is on our website so you could feel free to email me. And if you are fundraising it would please share a deck that would be helpful just to give as much context as possible for what you're working on. And then as far as advice for investing now, if people don't have operating experience, I often recommend that's a great place to start. Investing is awesome. Roles are few and far between. But also when I think about what I rely on every day, it's more my experience operating versus my time and investment banking and stuff like that.

35:15
Hayden Williams
And so if you don't have operating experience or if you haven't worked in an early stage startup, there is no substitute for working at a fast growing early stage company and really learning on someone else's dime and seeing firsthand what works and what doesn't. And that could even be like a chief of staff role, which could be great because you're sitting next to the CEO and you're seeing how decisions get made. You're seeing getting pretty quick feedback about good and bad decisions. You can get pulled into fundraising and strategy. So that's a great training ground to ultimately get into investing.

35:47
Hayden Williams
And then as far as if you've done that or if you haven't done that, you want to build relationships with investors, I'd say the best thing to do is just send them great deal, flow and share companies that you genuinely think are interesting and really match their mandate. Basically you can just do the job even if you don't have the job and that can be a good way to organically build relationships and even just see for yourself. Is this for me?

36:10
Hannah Dittman
Super practical and great advice. Thank you so much for sharing and thanks again so much for your time today. Hayden, you're such a positive, fun person to chat with and clearly an amazing partner to the portfolio companies you work with. Congrats again on the huge success here and excited to continue watching and following along on your journey as I'm sure you'll have many more.

36:29
Hayden Williams
Thank you Hannah. I really appreciate the time.

36:34
Hannah Dittman
Well friends, we've now arrived together at the end of another episode of the Startup CPG Podcast, the top globally ranked podcast in cpg. And if you love this podcast, you'll love our Slack community even more. Here at Startup cpg, we're a community of brands and experts and you should join. Sign up@startupcpg.com you'll then get an invite to our online Slack community of over 35,000 All Star CPG members, hear about amazing events near you and all our special opportunities to get you in front of buyers, investors, brands and more. It's a free community, so what are you waiting for? I'll catch you on the next episode and I'll see you on the Slack.