The Startup CPG Podcast

Samuel Jacobson
You have to be able to just embrace rejection, which I think is a theme of life in general, but with hard water. I like working in these brands that are sort of new categories and really, truly innovative products. And part of the game is like, you're going to get laughed at a lot, especially in the early days before the concept has been proven and you can't let you know one kind of mean person ruin the rest of your day and your show and cut down your confidence.

Samuel Jacobson
00:38 - 00:48
And like I said, a lot of those people will come back around two years down the road, maybe even a year down the road and end up really liking the product and understanding it.

Daniel Scharff
00:48 - 01:10
CPGs make sure that your pen has enough ink, because you're going to want to take notes during this whole episode. Samuel Jacobson from Hop Water, another one of my sales heroes, is on the podcast today to just ooze knowledge from years of doing distributor shows. It's how to choose and plan for the show. Figure out what deals you're going to offer.

Daniel Scharff
01:10 - 01:28
And you know once you're on the floor, how to really rip. These are my favorite kinds of episodes, where I'm so certain that you all are going to just grow your brains over the next hour by learning from somebody who I think is one of the best out there. Thank you so much to Samuel for giving his time on this episode.

Daniel Scharff
01:28 - 01:53
Enjoy. Hello everybody! We are very lucky to be joined today by Samuel Jacobson, my friend, currently the Senior Director of Key Accounts and alternate Channels at Hot Water, a very high growth sparkling water brand and the leading hot water. He's managed distributor, broker, retail relationships and so much more for hot water since 2021, which is when the brand expanded out of DTC.

Daniel Scharff
01:53 - 02:21
Currently, he leads the Natural Channel through Unify and Kahi, and also on premise food and third party e-commerce. Before hot water, he was with Seed Lip, the first nonalcoholic spirit that was acquired by Diageo in 2019. That set off the non-alcohol craze that you see with all the brands that have launched since then. Samuel also had managed wholesale, actually in the UK, before launching Seed Lip into Diageo, his distributor network in the US.

Daniel Scharff
02:21 - 02:42
He is a University of Texas Austin grad, and he had actually spent several years touring in rock bands, which is my dream. And he also had played South by Southwest. So when he's not selling water, you can find him skiing or at a music festival. I plan to join him for that, hopefully soon, and let's get it going.

Daniel Scharff
02:42 - 02:44
Samuel, thank you so much for joining us today.

Samuel Jacobson
02:44 - 02:54
Thank you for having me, Daniel. And I hope it's okay if, I drink a little water on the pot. This is our new 16 ounce here we just launched, so. Oh.

Daniel Scharff
02:54 - 03:01
That's amazing. Okay, wait. Give us a little Asmr. Like, take a slow sip and let's hear it.

Samuel Jacobson
03:01 - 03:06
So label out, you know, of course.

Samuel Jacobson
03:06 - 03:24
That's the these are going to hit. We just started rolling these out into retail. So we're really excited. But no Daniel I know we've known each other for a few years now. When I first moved to LA, I came to a ton of your startup CPG events. I've learned just a ton from the slack channel and the amazing community you build.

Samuel Jacobson
03:24 - 03:28
So means a lot to be on here, and I appreciate you asking me to join.

Daniel Scharff
03:28 - 03:46
Absolutely. Yeah. I remember the first time I met you was at a natural event here in LA, and I just saw you talking to people about the brand and saw your vibe. And then I think I after about five seconds, I was like, hey, can I hire you? Like, can I post you from wherever you are? And I didn't really know, like about Hop Water at that point.

Daniel Scharff
03:46 - 04:02
I definitely didn't know Jordan, who I now consider a friend, and I was just like, hey, like, can I steal you right away? And you're like, yeah, maybe not. Like, you know, it's going pretty well, but thank you. And then so yeah, this is excited to get to know you, but I just I loved your vibe like so down to earth and cool.

Daniel Scharff
04:02 - 04:24
And I could just see somebody that people would love talking to. And obviously, you know your shit also, which is the most important thing. And then, you know, after that, we just kind of kept running into each other. And I think the next time we really chatted was at a unify distributor show in Las Vegas, and you know, what happened in Vegas doesn't stay in Vegas on this podcast, but we're just talking about distributor shows, so nothing crazy.

Daniel Scharff
04:24 - 04:48
Basically the coolest thing was I was talking to somebody on your team who I knew and it was my first time at a Unifi show, and I was just asking her for tips. And she's like, you know, you need to talk to Samuel. This guy is a killer. Like, watch how like he'll talk to somebody and then before they know it, they're like walking out of there with a couple palette order that they didn't even realize that they needed to do with him.

Daniel Scharff
04:48 - 05:07
And so then, you know, I chatted with you about it and you were giving me tips on like, hey, you know, first of all, you don't even need to, like, wait for the selling window. You know, you can submit turnover forms to unify. So you taught me how to do that. That was a game changer. And then also just kind of learning, like how to negotiate in the moment with people really effectively.

Daniel Scharff
05:08 - 05:25
And so, man, I have sales heroes in this life I'm really excited to learn from. You're definitely one of them. And I know you are the right guy to talk about this topic. So thank you for making the time. And guys, get your notepads out. This is going to be a doozy. I'm telling you, this is going to be just like nugget after nugget.

Daniel Scharff
05:25 - 05:32
And we might even talk about nugget. The retailer is always at the shows also. And you need to know how to negotiate with them, especially.

Samuel Jacobson
05:32 - 05:36
When they have to be ready for stores to come by. That's the funny nugget.

Daniel Scharff
05:36 - 05:50
Yeah, that's for me. That's the funniest part of the show, is when the nugget horde comes by. It's like they're like in a pack and they protect the king. He's like in there in the middle. You're like, can I say hi to him? And they're like, they have like a bouncer. And they're like, I don't know if you can talk to them.

Samuel Jacobson
05:50 - 06:00
A lot of them role in entourage is, you know, I know it will be rude. Yeah. No, I'm really excited to jump into it and appreciate the kind words that you.

Daniel Scharff
06:00 - 06:23
Absolutely. So just to get into this one, then let's do an overview. Because when I started I, I didn't know what distributor shows were. I like I didn't know is this like an expo or if I haven't been like, what should I expect out of this? So can you just in your words, give us an overview of like, what is a distributor show over something like Expo West that people might have a better grasp of.

Samuel Jacobson
06:23 - 07:07
Right. Yeah. And I, I definitely wanted to to touch on this because you guys released a really valuable episode gearing up for Expo West this year, where you talked to a few veterans and that was, really informative. I recommend anyone who's doing one of those larger shows, go back and take a listen to that. They had some really good advice, but there is a pretty big distinction between a selling show and sort of, you know, your big Expo West, where it's everyone from the industry, you know, ingredients, suppliers, packaging suppliers, investors, partners, the unifying key selling shows are kind of a different experience because it's mostly vendors and buyers and Daniel.

Samuel Jacobson
07:07 - 07:10
Yeah, that's right. That's where we connected on the show floor.

Daniel Scharff
07:10 - 07:17
Vendors meaning us. But like brands, by the way, like you and I, five vendors not like service provider agencies because they're actually not there.

Samuel Jacobson
07:17 - 07:20
Yeah. brands you might say it right.

Daniel Scharff
07:21 - 07:39
It is interesting that like it's a show where you don't Expo West is just crawling with a marketing agencies and oh, packaging materials and you're just like, oh, like, okay, I'm trying to, like, sell to a buyer right now, but actually they aren't allowed into the unified Katie shows and even me like as media, they don't really lead in either out like I want to be there.

Daniel Scharff
07:39 - 07:41
I can't get in. There's just business happening.

Samuel Jacobson
07:41 - 08:07
Right? So yeah, and also buyers are in a different state of mind and, and have a different agenda as well. You know, I think expos a lot about discovery and sort of getting the lay of the land in at these shows. It's really they're ready to buy. They're looking for deals and they're moving pretty aggressively. Obviously depends on the buying team, you know, the sense of urgency they have around that and which categories they're looking at.

Samuel Jacobson
08:07 - 08:12
You know how quickly they move. But yeah it's a place for business to happen for sure.

Daniel Scharff
08:12 - 08:29
Yeah. Actually on that note, I remember at a Kahi show, one of the Texas retailers came up to me and he was like, hey, did anyone from my team get to you yet? I was like, oh no, he's like, okay, I want to take like, you know, five pallet order at 30%. That's just what we're doing. 30%. We have a competition on my team for who can get the most, you know, orders done right now.

Daniel Scharff
08:29 - 08:35
Like, okay. Like, you know, we were okay with that level of discount. Like okay, great. Like yeah you win.

Samuel Jacobson
08:35 - 08:52
Great. You got to do that. Yeah. And they sometimes take the lead there as well. Whereas like Expo everybody sort of give you your pitch you know. And sometimes those buyers will come with their unit fire key account managers and they're ready to roll. This is what we want. Can you meet that. If not we're moving on. Yeah.

Daniel Scharff
08:52 - 08:58
Not to say like every brand should expect to go in there and sell their lifetime record of stuff, right? Yeah.

Samuel Jacobson
08:58 - 09:20
I want to be clear. And I think that's a good place to start is like, you know, when I started with hot water, I had done during my time with Caleb, I actually did a couple of shows over there, obviously, totally different landscape in the UK, but when I started taking over the natural channel with hot Water, I didn't really know what I was getting into with some of these selling shows.

09:20 - 09:50
Samuel Jacobson
And, you know, the first 1 or 2, it was definitely a learning process. So I'm hoping that some of, the learnings that I sort of fumbled through over the past three years, you know, might be helpful to somebody going to their first show. But yeah, I mean, the other piece here that I think will come up a few times is that, you know, when you're in a mature state of the brand, there's a lot more opportunity for volume at these shows that becomes the focus.

00;09;50;06 - 00;10;16;18
Samuel Jacobson
So that's definitely where we're at with hot water today. But definitely initially, you know, getting some placements and starting conversations is a win. Right. And I've seen accounts that we met literally three years ago come back around and now we're it's paying off. And we've sort of nursed that relationship over the years. And you know, they saw us then and maybe even they laughed and sort of smirked at us.

00;10;16;18 - 00;10;36;13
Samuel Jacobson
Then like, what even is a hot water before was recognized as its own category by the data companies. And and finally it's coming around. So that's the other piece is like, don't be discouraged. Anyone who's at their first show and sort of figuring it out, I think that's a great point, Daniel, that there's still a lot of value even if you're not closing, you know, huge orders.

00;10;36;16 - 00;10;56;13
Daniel Scharff
Okay. So tell me if you like this analogy based off what you just said. It's almost like Expo West might be the, er, one discovery, figuring out, learning about new brands and then unified key shows are like the Costco, you know, where it's like, oh, if they know, you know, you see a brand that you know, you're going in and you're taking volume, you're getting deals.

00;10;56;14 - 00;11;18;20
Samuel Jacobson
Yeah. Yeah, I think that that makes sense to me. It's yeah. But the discovery piece I think, happens at these shows for earlier stage brands as well. That is to say that buyers, you know, buyers are relatively risk averse. And so, you know, you'll find 1 or 2 that are going to take a bet on you if they really like the product and the vision.

00;11;18;26 - 00;11;34;21
Samuel Jacobson
And that's sort of your crowbar into getting some data points to prove the brand out. But I would say don't be discouraged. Just like that first show with you and a fire key like you know, you're not walking away if you break even on that first show. Like that's a win, you know? Yeah.

00;11;34;21 - 00;11;42;12
Daniel Scharff
So and let's talk about that because so yeah obviously you have to pay money for the booth at these shows. I forget the exact amount, but I don't know, maybe it's like.

00;11;42;15 - 00;11;44;01
Samuel Jacobson
It's creeping up every year.

00;11;44;03 - 00;11;46;01
Daniel Scharff
Or something just for the booth.

00;11;46;04 - 00;11;48;21
Samuel Jacobson
If there is, is between 5 and 10 grand, I think.

00;11;48;23 - 00;12;01;09
Daniel Scharff
Okay. And then on top of that, like, yeah, you need to budget for this thing. So five to 10-K for the booth plus your flight there and your hotels. And I don't know they if they're like in Chicago the hotels are always I don't know we're like really sold out.

00;12;01;09 - 00;12;02;09
Samuel Jacobson
It wasn't crazy.

00;12;02;12 - 00;12;18;11
Daniel Scharff
At that point. Yeah. If anyone needs like a cheap hotel option I found a really good one. A lovely Chinese hotel chain that's not too far away. It was like a hundred bucks a night is perfect. I saw a lot of our friends there. Me and Jake from Manila were chillin there with enjoying our nice, like, one third pricing.

00;12;18;14 - 00;12;32;15
Daniel Scharff
Okay, but then you product costs also, right? So shipping a pallet of pop water there, right. I mean that's going to cost you know I don't know maybe a grand or more right. In terms of the product cost plus the shipping. And then they have to receive it. They charge you a little bit for that.

00;12;32;19 - 00;13;01;20
Samuel Jacobson
I think there are definitely ways in the early days, I mean, we're still super scrappy. So, you know, we'll call the hotel and try to ship stuff to the hotel and take, you know, a small fee for them to store it. You know, if we have a broker or a salesperson, somebody from the team in the area will ship to their house and they'll drive it in to the show because, the fees associated with shipping to the service provider at the convention center can really creep up on you.

00;13;01;21 - 00;13;06;04
Daniel Scharff
They're wild. Oh, no. I mean, not just creep up. They'll hit you in the face with a sledgehammer.

00;13;06;04 - 00;13;26;25
Samuel Jacobson
If you can avoid it. Finding alternate ways of getting your product and your booth assets into the venue is definitely the way that we've done it. There's also ways of saving, like on the booth, so you can do like a shared booth, which if it's like, you know, you just starting out at these shows, that's a good way to not like over invest and still be there and get a sense of the show.

00;13;26;28 - 00;13;44;05
Samuel Jacobson
But once you move on, I think getting the full booth like you kind of want some room to move around you. Also, you know, I would say even in the early days, it's great to have more than one person if you can afford it. And if you have the team availability because, you know, one, there's a lot going on.

00;13;44;05 - 00;14;01;22
Samuel Jacobson
So having multiple people to have a second conversation or to do I know we're going to talk about sort of loading orders and different strategies for like taking down orders. You know, sometimes you'll be using the iPad. It takes a while to get used to that. So having two people minimum I think is a good way to go.

00;14;01;22 - 00;14;09;11
Samuel Jacobson
So then you'll, you know, it's nice to have the larger booth space just to move around. But yeah, there are ways to sort of cut down costs if that's helpful at all.

00;14;09;11 - 00;14;29;17
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. And then I remember when I went to Unified Vegas, I drove there from LA and now I have a bigger car. But at the time we just rented like a little van or whatever, loaded everything up there. I think we ended up taking maybe using about three layers of products. maybe not even that much, honestly, because it's not like Expo West where everyone's drinking and you can kind of control it like you.

00;14;29;17 - 00;14;35;02
Daniel Scharff
Honestly, you probably be okay if you only had like 1020 cases of beverage at least.

00;14;35;04 - 00;14;53;16
Samuel Jacobson
Usually we do. I mean, because you want some display product, you don't want all of your product in the ice, you know. So you got to thread the needle for sure. I mean, it's definitely better to go a little heavier than lighter on the product front. You don't want to run out of product, but you know. Yeah, 15 cases generally you can get away with it.

00;14;53;16 - 00;15;12;12
Samuel Jacobson
And these shows, you know, they're not like Expo where it's three days. Generally it's going to be two days. And sometimes even that second day is slightly shorter. So yeah, the time on the floor, you can kind of do the math. And it also depends how you're serving. So generally you're serving with beverage like small you know 1.5oz samples.

00;15;12;19 - 00;15;18;27
Samuel Jacobson
But you're going to want to be able to give some cans away if people want to take those as well. So yeah, run the math and figure out where you end.

00;15;19;00 - 00;15;35;03
Daniel Scharff
And speaking of being scrappy, because I'm in the midst of fancy food planning and I see some beverage companies like, oh, I guess we have to rent a fridge for me. What I figured out is you buy a collapsible cooler off Amazon, send it to the hotel, and then every day just bring some garbage bags and take the ice from the hotel.

00;15;35;05 - 00;15;37;27
Daniel Scharff
Go put your product in the cooler, fill it with ice.

00;15;38;00 - 00;15;38;19
Samuel Jacobson
He done that?

00;15;38;19 - 00;15;46;05
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. And then koozies. Honestly, for me, the best was just keep the cans in a collapsible cooler, the ice, and then have koozies and they'll stay nice and cold.

00;15;46;08 - 00;15;56;26
Samuel Jacobson
Totally. Yeah. We recently brought in sort of barrel coolers for Expo. and we're rolling those out to these shows as well, which is great if you're sort of handing out cans, you know.

00;15;56;26 - 00;16;01;24
Daniel Scharff
Nice pun rolling them out again. Yeah. There you go. Ding

00;16;01;26 - 00;16;03;11
Samuel Jacobson
Bada boom.

00;16;03;13 - 00;16;20;06
Daniel Scharff
Oh, and by the way just about the half booth. Interesting that you brought that up because I kind of forgot about that I think. Okay. The key show that I went to, I don't think I saw a lot of them, at least in Chicago, but I know you and I did see some of them. And then I think when they did the San Diego show, I saw it was like, oh, maybe they would have them, maybe they wouldn't.

00;16;20;10 - 00;16;34;16
Daniel Scharff
So maybe it's an option sometimes, but it sounds like, hey, like it's a good idea to see if that's an option. Like for me, I don't care about the booth the size of it that I have. I just need to be at the show. So I'll take the lowest table stakes, right? Like, get me there. I'm in the aisle, like doing my thing.

00;16;34;16 - 00;16;37;18
Daniel Scharff
I don't care what's behind me. Just like, give me a place to post up, you know?

00;16;37;20 - 00;16;57;09
Samuel Jacobson
Totally, totally depends on the brand as well. You know, some people I've never worked in, sort of hot prepared items. Obviously, you need, like, some real estate to pull that off. And that's something that, you know, logistically, I don't envy those brands. They always do an amazing job making sure that that food comes out nice and fresh.

00;16;57;09 - 00;17;11;27
Samuel Jacobson
Samples. It's a little easier with beverages as long as they're cold. You know you're kind of good to go. So it's a simpler, streamlined thing. But I agree, you know, that sort of we can touch also on like booth presentation, you know because that's evolved a lot for us as a brand over time.

00;17;12;01 - 00;17;26;13
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. Let's do it. Because I actually think that's one of the most important points. Just the little things like is your hot food hot? If it's not hot, it tastes bad. And like I've seen brains where I'm like, hey, like I've walked by and the drinks weren't cold. I'm like, I'm just because I'm your friend. I'm just telling you, like, chill it down.

00;17;26;13 - 00;17;43;00
Daniel Scharff
Like, put this, go swirl it around the ice, put it at the bottom of the sludge is tasting bad right now. You're making bad impressions. Like, for me, I mean, I don't know if I'm a perfectionist, but I honestly think that this is the right way to be. The drink must be ice cold. Get it in the cuzi, hack it every once in a while.

00;17;43;00 - 00;17;47;03
Daniel Scharff
Like don't be pouring warm samples and don't be serving cold food, right?

00;17;47;03 - 00;18;07;07
Samuel Jacobson
If you have a dry spell for a bit, you can pull those samples and open fresh cans if you're pouring from them for sure. And I think, you know, people get carried away with visuals with booths, and it's something that's really exciting about our industry is like the creativity that goes into, you know, presenting your brand in all of these different ways.

00;18;07;07 - 00;18;28;06
Samuel Jacobson
And obviously the physical interaction can be really impactful. So, you know, to finally see, like, you know, hobby. You had a really cool, activation expo this year, you know, really interactive, cool space. You know, they probably invested a lot into that. And that's great. It's great part of the industry. I just don't think it should be a priority, especially for emerging brands.

00;18;28;06 - 00;18;51;27
Samuel Jacobson
And at these shows like you want to clearly communicate what the product is, you know, maybe a few lifestyle elements behind the brand. So it's not just, you know, solution oriented, it's also the identity of the product. But beyond that, and that can be pull up banners. We actually just rolled out with a big backdrop, which is a big upgrade for us, just having like a clean sort of large scale backdrop that collapses.

00;18;51;27 - 00;19;01;00
Samuel Jacobson
But in the early days, I mean, we had just like tablecloth one stand up banner and a branded cooler and just stacks of product, you know, and you get product is.

00;19;01;00 - 00;19;02;16
Daniel Scharff
King, though.

00;19;02;19 - 00;19;18;18
Samuel Jacobson
You know, the other thing I'd say is like, you know, I think when I first got out there, I was a little bit like, well, here we are, this like small brand, you know, our first show, like, here's all these people with these double wide booths, you know, and ten people in there. But, you know, from the buyers side, they like seeing you where you're at.

00;19;18;18 - 00;19;43;01
Samuel Jacobson
You know, you can really be yourself. And I think that speaks to, you know, CPG in general. And it's something that I really like about, you know, selling in this space is that, you're rewarded for authenticity. So if you truly are a customer and a fan of the brand that you're working with, you should be yourself at the shows because, you know, they're interacting with a lot of people and they're not looking for a certain thing.

00;19;43;01 - 00;19;47;11
Samuel Jacobson
They want to hear from you for who you are and where you are. So that makes sense.

00;19;47;11 - 00;20;06;19
Daniel Scharff
Yep. I just I'm thinking about the booth expenses and, you know, when it would make sense to start. Oh, you go for a bigger booth. But now you need a more expensive booth design and a place to keep the booth. And then more people to man the booth. Oh, it's a slippery slope, right? I'm just such a fan of being scrappy, but I mean, yeah, you know, you see the like.

00;20;06;19 - 00;20;13;01
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. The, like, impossible booth at Expo. It's like a whole hot dog stand set up, and it's massive.

00;20;13;03 - 00;20;34;27
Samuel Jacobson
after, like, a merger or something. Suddenly things change as well. Like, it's like there's 50 people on the floor, they're in the main hall, and it's a whole game changer. But yeah, I would say, don't get ahead of your skis. And, you know, retailers are, you know, judging you based on how flashy you are. They want to taste an amazing product and understand why it matters for their sets.

00;20;34;27 - 00;20;50;06
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, I think if you asked all the like food tech companies that are now having tons of problems with like cash and profitability, like what are the things you should have pulled back the most? Probably like booth expenses. Ridiculous. You know, ornate booths would have been one of the first things.

00;20;50;11 - 00;20;51;29
Samuel Jacobson
Yeah, I can see that.

00;20;52;01 - 00;21;12;25
Daniel Scharff
So, okay. Right. And then just. Yeah, speaking like, what's some other stuff about, you know, booth floor like. Yeah. I mean, okay, let's say, like, you're just there and you're trying to meet the right buyers, like, what's your approach? You know, Samuel, just like a teleported on to a trade show floor right now, you're standing in front of your booth and you know the traffic's coming at you.

00;21;12;25 - 00;21;13;24
Daniel Scharff
What do you actually doing?

00;21;13;27 - 00;21;40;14
Samuel Jacobson
Yeah, I mean, I think taking a step back and looking at sort of what this experience is like from the buyers side, you know, these people are flown out on the distributor's dime to be there. And for some of them, these are general, somewhat desirable locations. You mentioned Las Vegas. You know, there's a show in Orlando. I think some of these buyers like bringing their families out there to go to Disneyland or whatever.

00;21;40;14 - 00;22;03;03
Samuel Jacobson
So, you know, some of these buyers are coming in sort of like they're like decompress a little bit from their normal workday. They're happy to be outside of the office. And so, you know, they're looking to have fun at some level. And I think, you know, a mistake that I made probably in the first 30 minutes to an hour of the first show I was at, was just being extremely serious.

00;22;03;10 - 00;22;25;18
Samuel Jacobson
And, as a salesperson, I know, you know, we're all under a lot of pressure, but you don't want to translate that pressure over to the buyers. So just being fun and happy and sort of gravitational of like, and there's kind of a momentum thing where like if you bring some energy over to your booth, people will see that and it'll draw them over, you know.

00;22;25;18 - 00;22;49;00
Samuel Jacobson
So there's a level of inertia with like traffic at the booth that you can take advantage of, of sort of spinning up some traffic and helping that play into the next group of people. I would say it's really important to know your marketing language that your brand team has put together, and the way that the brand is communicated in a digital ad, for example.

00;22;49;05 - 00;23;12;24
Samuel Jacobson
But the way that you grab somebody attention on a show floor in five seconds might look different than what's on the marketing collateral. So, you know, an example is with Hop Water. You know, one thing I'll say a lot is like, you know, asking somebody a question, actually just saying like, question. You know, the answer is yes to like, do you like, crack it a cold one?

00;23;12;27 - 00;23;26;27
Samuel Jacobson
What are you asking me? You know, at that point, all you need to do is just initiate the conversation and get their attention to have them walk over to the booth, at which point then you can talk through the product attributes and you know why you're going to be an asset to their set.

00;23;27;04 - 00;23;33;19
Daniel Scharff
That's cool. Who could say no to that? Like, who could even not crack a smile, right? And like, just enjoy that entry.

00;23;33;20 - 00;23;54;29
Samuel Jacobson
Yeah. Like because people are just constantly like and I think it's, you know, one way I think about it as well as like, you know, it's kind of like being at a bar and you're like striking up a conversation with somebody, you know, you can't go up and be like, you know, what's your credit score? And, you know, mine is this I got to sort of ease your way into the nuts and bolts.

00;23;55;05 - 00;24;01;18
Daniel Scharff
Oh, no. Is that why I'm still single? okay, I'll take that one off my, like, up line list that.

00;24;01;20 - 00;24;28;04
Samuel Jacobson
Goes right into here. So I think that's an important thing. I think also like, you know, you have to be able to just embrace rejection, which I think is, you know, a theme of life in general. But, with hard water, I like working in these brands that are sort of new categories and really, truly innovative products. And part of the game is like, you're going to get laughed at a lot, especially in the early days before the concept has been proven.

00;24;28;11 - 00;24;44;18
Samuel Jacobson
And you can't let you know one kind of mean person ruin the rest of your day and your show and cut down your confidence. So, and like I said, a lot of those people will come back around two years down the road, maybe even a year down the road and end up really liking the product and understanding it.

00;24;44;20 - 00;25;01;16
Samuel Jacobson
So don't take anything personally and come in with like a firm grounding of of where you're at it. You know, if somebody doesn't like it, you know, smile like you know that it's thanks for the time trying it or hearing about it. And, don't burn that bridge because, they could come back around sooner rather than later.

00;25;01;18 - 00;25;15;25
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, that's a good point. And I, Yeah, that's a long run in this industry. Right. And but, yeah, I mean, it's hard to imagine that when you're just starting out a brand, but you're going to see that same buyer the next year, and maybe they'll have actually heard of your brand that time, right? With like, hot water.

00;25;16;02 - 00;25;33;13
Daniel Scharff
You guys started it was kind of a new you were pioneering this new type of drink, new category or, you know, and then, you know, fast forward today, like widely recognized as the leader in hot water and everything. People know it now. And, you know, you're not gonna have to explain what it is as much the conversation will start a little bit differently, probably for a lot of buyers.

00;25;33;16 - 00;25;49;15
Daniel Scharff
But also like there's a woman, I'm a huge fan of, actually, that I was talking to at Expo West, and she had just had a buyer really give her a negative view on on her products, and she came up and she was pretty upset about it. And just like it was going to ruin her day, like you're talking about her.

00;25;49;17 - 00;26;09;19
Daniel Scharff
And I mean, yeah, I've had that happen to me and it oh, it's a huge bummer because you're like, oh my gosh. And now like that's a no from them. And I'm going to have to like restart my whole process with them. It can be another year. But like I but that's what I said to her. I was just like and like so what it is an unlimited universe out there of potential retailers like okay, go a different route.

00;26;09;19 - 00;26;12;20
Daniel Scharff
Other do other people like it? Yes. Okay. Go talk to them.

00;26;12;23 - 00;26;14;01
Samuel Jacobson
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

00;26;14;01 - 00;26;17;27
Daniel Scharff
There's no product at 100% of people like, except maybe cold ones. I don't know.

00;26;18;00 - 00;26;36;16
Samuel Jacobson
It's true. And it's also, you know, the buyer might not like it, but their consumers might their customers. Right. And so like, you know, eventually they'll realize that, you know, if it's really a great product. And I think yeah, like the numbers game is huge because you know the US we're fortunate to have a massive market that we can address.

00;26;36;16 - 00;27;00;04
Samuel Jacobson
And you know with undefined Kahi, this is unique with these distributors versus like a DST network, you know, you sign one contract, you start working with you and and key and you can address the entire country. You just have to activate those DCS and get the product out there and get the demand. You know, that's something else we could talk about is this sort of chicken and the egg ramping up demand.

00;27;00;04 - 00;27;19;10
Samuel Jacobson
And warehouse activations. And, you know, it's a really tricky needle to thread to sort of have enough demand to load the product in and enough pull through to keep it there. But, you know, it's got to be there to actually make the sale. So it's a sweet spot of timing that's kind of tricky to hit in the early days of expanding a brand.

00;27;19;13 - 00;27;41;09
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. And so for these and this was a learning to me also. But when you're talking about Unify Las Vegas like who's going to go to that. You can kind of guess. And then you can also understand which of the distributor centers that you need to be active in for that to make sense. So if you take like okay K Chicago right there, couple k DCS, most the people who go to that show are retailers who pull from those DC.

00;27;41;09 - 00;27;47;03
Daniel Scharff
So it's going to be the Texas retailers for Chicago. It's going to be up, you know, up to Michigan basically like now.

00;27;47;04 - 00;27;47;21
Samuel Jacobson
Yeah yeah.

00;27;47;27 - 00;28;05;05
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. Center. Like do you get a couple coming in from West Coast? Sure. Yeah. Because they just are interested to be there and see the brands and, you know, make buys and everything. But in general. Yeah. Like okay, if you're considering which of these shows to go to, maybe you're in both unify Inc he like yeah okay. What's your priority region.

00;28;05;09 - 00;28;15;25
Daniel Scharff
Where are you trying to get set up. Right. And then like yeah, you can try to go there and make a case for like let me get 40 doors and then I can get unifier K key to open that DC up for me. If I have to order your orders. Ready to go. Right. Yeah.

00;28;15;25 - 00;28;39;07
Samuel Jacobson
And that's a part of the value of these shows I would say. I mean with like, you know, in the early days, like because some of these retailers are big enough that, you know, they can anchor even several DC, you know, like Harris Teeter is a huge door count. You know, somebody like big Y we connected with in the early days of our trade shows, and they helped us launch that DC over there on the East Coast.

00;28;39;07 - 00;29;06;19
Samuel Jacobson
So, you know, building the demand and sort of like using the shows as a way to get these anchor points and then launch and then. Yeah, sure, you're going to miss out on some opportunity. You got to log that demand and follow up once it's open. But it's kind of, it's a way if you want to expand, you know, if you want to do expand on to the East Coast, you know, hit the Orlando show and meet a lot of those retailers and set up those anchor points to get product out there.

00;29;06;22 - 00;29;20;12
Daniel Scharff
Also, it'll like you're talking about the role of the show is different depending on the maturity of the brand and what you're trying to accomplish. At least for me, when I went in the early days, the brand was not well known. I was trying to actually just build relationships with the big retailers. Like, I didn't really care if they came in.

00;29;20;12 - 00;29;34;07
Daniel Scharff
And like, I'm talking to an indie store and they want that player like they want a free case for me, and then they'll order three. Like, that's really not what I'm there to do. I don't care about selling those cases. I care about the whales that are there. And I'm I'm, you know, they're not going to give me a yes on the floor for the reset.

00;29;34;07 - 00;29;56;26
Daniel Scharff
But I actually did get a bunch of accounts that way with those, you know, let's say Midwest retailers when they were there, that was just another really important in-person touchpoint. Some of who it was the first time I finally got them to actually stop and sample the product. But yeah, I mean, then later in the later stages, yeah, you might be just like, okay, if you take the key Chicago show, that's a winter selling show, even though it's in the summer, but they're ordering for the winter.

00;29;56;26 - 00;30;31;17
Daniel Scharff
So like they're there to buy a crap ton of chocolate, right, for their like, displays. And if you're, you know, Ferrero Rocher or whatever, you're they're trying to just sell a truckload. Right? And they're trying to get a deal on that truckload. Right. So different roles. But I think good for people if they're looking at the landscape of all shows out there, all the unify shows over the year, all the Kahi shows, any other distributor shows or local shows that you can consider as like, how does this tie into my overall strategy, our growth ambitions, how much money we have to spend on this stuff, what our distributor strategy and maybe not even just the

00;30;31;17 - 00;30;42;15
Daniel Scharff
strategy, but the reality is today, right? And like also maybe not having the FOMO like, okay, let's be realistic, this is not the year to do it, but next year might be. And yeah, you.

00;30;42;15 - 00;31;02;27
Samuel Jacobson
Know, I think you can ask, you know, if you're lucky to have, you know, a broker partner you can get their insight about because this shows, you know, there's a certain amount of change over a year over year with like, you know, locations and, you know, word on the street of where most of the retailers are going to be and you know, where your priority targets are going to be.

00;31;03;00 - 00;31;25;17
Samuel Jacobson
So another thing that's worth mentioning is some of the Unfi regions do smaller local table top shows. So one of these just happened in Anaheim. There's one in Sacramento coming up. And I believe these are invite from their side. But it's something to have on your radar and speak to your unit five reps about making it into those shows because, there's a lower price barrier to entry.

00;31;25;24 - 00;31;32;26
Samuel Jacobson
It's a little more intimate of a setting, and it's a good bridge, to do a quick one day show and build out some of that business.

00;31;32;26 - 00;31;51;21
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, these are like double secret shows. I remember, like, our broker had no idea when these were happening. They couldn't get us into them. Are you in a five rep or would they still were like, oh, I don't even really know who manages that. Or does he invite? I don't know how this thing happens, but if you find the person who does make it happen, be.

00;31;51;21 - 00;32;11;22
Samuel Jacobson
Their best friend in three quarters. Yeah. yeah. It's, I didn't know about them for, you know, the first year and a half of doing this, and it started here, these murders, you know, and then, we have a guy on our team who manages the Pacific Northwest. He's an absolute stud, rich Castillo. He's in the business for a long time.

00;32;11;24 - 00;32;17;16
Samuel Jacobson
When he did one of these in the Pacific Northwest, and it was just massive success. Okay, we need to do these.

00;32;17;19 - 00;32;18;22
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, we were that.

00;32;18;23 - 00;32;26;19
Samuel Jacobson
They're happening. So, yeah, I'm not by no means an expert on those. So it worth asking, your partners and keep an ear out how to get involved in those as well.

00;32;26;20 - 00;32;42;15
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. And then oh another thing I want to touch on at the show. Right. You've got the buyers and we're talking about them a lot. But also actually the people who work for the distributor are sometimes can even be more important. Right. So like at the Kahi show, anyone who works for he I'm stopping him like, oh, hey, what accounts do you work on?

00;32;42;18 - 00;32;59;00
Daniel Scharff
And not even like they might be the buyer's best friend or like, you know, right hand person who can who like, oh, let me go get the buyer for you. I like this product or hey, send me samples and I will take it to the buyer. Sometimes buyers even are like looking to them to really recommend products. The assortment.

00;32;59;00 - 00;32;59;07
Daniel Scharff
Right.

00;32;59;15 - 00;33;24;06
Samuel Jacobson
These are people who you know there's a reason they work in natural foods. You know, they love the space. So, you know, connecting with unified key account managers or even other stakeholders within those organizations, they can really become champions of your brand. And they're talking to a lot, you know, internally within those organizations, they can really open doors.

00;33;24;06 - 00;33;59;02
Samuel Jacobson
Obviously, your supplier relationship manager or your category manager, they're critical people to build those relationships with your buying team because you know, they're going to navigate whether you can move to full palette quantities at the right time. You know, there's a lot of power that they hold. But, you know, we've had you know, a good example is a guy named Brandon Bailey who's in the Rocky Mountain region and sort of really early on in hot waters life, he became a big brand advocate and just helped us unlock a ton of business there based on his relationships and being an authentic fan of the brand.

00;33;59;04 - 00;34;24;28
Samuel Jacobson
So a 100%, I would say, and I think that extends as well to a point that's discussed a lot when people talk about trade shows. And this came up in your discussion about Expo West, it's really important to, not be a total shark and only focus your attention and energy on who you know to be buyers of big chains, you know, really treat everyone with the same level of attention and respect.

00;34;25;06 - 00;34;46;23
Samuel Jacobson
People transition roles a lot in this industry. Everyone is a consumer. Everyone chats. And it's just a good policy to have. I think. So, you know, it takes a lot of energy to get that level of pitch over and over again. But, it's really worth it. And yeah, some of those people could work on the distributor side, could be somebody's spouse, you know that.

00;34;46;24 - 00;34;58;04
Samuel Jacobson
You see that sometimes they bring their family to the show. You're like, who is this random person who's asking all these questions? They don't have a badge. And you find out pretty quickly. So I think that's really critical is treating everybody with dignity.

00;34;58;06 - 00;35;25;15
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, I like that. And even, you know, like at the Kahi show, for example, I really wanted to get into some of their honors programs, like they have one for the best in class brands that are mission based, and they have the elevate program for early brands, stuff like that. Everyone who works there can influence that. Honestly. You meet people from like the business development team, marketing team, the impact team, like Katie is a B Corp and everyone who's there is like really cares.

00;35;25;15 - 00;35;41;14
Daniel Scharff
Actually what I found. And if you talk to me about it like, you know, I think one of the best qualities of good leaders are people who can kind of make like spurious connections about things like kind of just on the fly, like, oh, you do this. Oh, what if we did this together? Like, oh, could you like, work on the impact side of the business?

00;35;41;14 - 00;35;57;17
Daniel Scharff
Like, could we talk about this with you and like, you have such a big opportunity to just sit and do that at these shows and they're kind of slow shows also. So you have the time to do it and then, yeah, you don't know, they might run over and grab some big wig for you that, you know, makes a big deal.

00;35;57;17 - 00;36;16;11
Daniel Scharff
So I really appreciate that perspective. You don't know who who knows who. And also oh, I was going to mention also lastly, like you said about like being kind to everybody, I feel like in my life almost every time I've just kind of like run out of energy and been a little, you know, shitty. Does somebody it's almost always come back to bite me in the ass.

00;36;16;12 - 00;36;37;16
Samuel Jacobson
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, to be clear, I'm not speaking from a place of, you know, perfection here. it's lessons learned. And I think the other corollary there is, you know, the show doesn't end at the doors. So, you know, there's social events that are planned by the distributors. Those are really critical. And, you know, you're still on stage at that point.

00;36;37;16 - 00;36;55;27
Samuel Jacobson
And also in the elevator in the parking lot, in moments of tension and stress on the airplane going out there. You know, I always see other people in the industry, whether it's on the brand side or brokers on the same flights as me coming from L.A. to some of these places. So just be aware of, you know, the way that you're representing your brand every step of the way.

00;36;55;27 - 00;37;14;24
Daniel Scharff
I would say I love that point. That totally resonates. And like I would say, always be branded, always like, yeah, because on my flight from DC to, you know, Vegas, once I just had my stuff with me and the unified person who manages the Vitacost business was there. She's like, oh yeah, I've been meaning to talk to you.

00;37;14;26 - 00;37;32;24
Daniel Scharff
And that was amazing. And then we got in there, and I remember also there's a really wonderful woman who manages the Ralphs category for like, the more natural set. Her name is Cassandra, and I was desperate to talk to her, and so I hadn't met her. And it was the end of the first day in Vegas. And then there was a nighttime event.

00;37;32;24 - 00;37;50;03
Daniel Scharff
It was cool. Was it like one of these, like, day party places? But it was a very nice nighttime event and I just like, walked around and I, you know, I was like, really just looking to network in general. But then I like saw her kind of walk by and then I basically I hope I hope she doesn't listen to this.

00;37;50;09 - 00;38;06;14
Daniel Scharff
But I walked over then kind of like, oh, it's be weird if I like you know, if I tried to corner her or something, I go over well, but I basically just then went and stood in the line to get like some pierogies or something. And then she just happened to walk in right behind me. I was like, oh, hey, like, what's up with these pierogies?

00;38;06;14 - 00;38;26;29
Daniel Scharff
Oh hi, I'm Daniel. yeah. Yeah. And then was able to talk to her and then she was like so nice. And she's like, yeah, okay. Oh, I already passed through that section, but I'll come back by tomorrow. And so I that's yeah. Like the nighttime stuff like always being on. And I will say, I mean I think a lot of people go there and try to have fun also at these events, kind of like you're talking about letting loose, but if you're on the brand side, I don't know.

00;38;26;29 - 00;38;39;08
Daniel Scharff
I've seen people get pretty drunk and then you just like make like really make a bad impression and also just not be on, you know, there are big opportunities all around you at that point and just well, it's not the time to, you know.

00;38;39;13 - 00;38;58;25
Samuel Jacobson
It's one of those needles again that you want to throw out of. Like, you know, you want to have fun and be social, you know, whatever that means for you. And the choices you're making. But it is still a professional environment. So, yeah, I mean, I think if I had gotten into this industry, you know, maybe at a younger stage of life, I may have, you know, had more learning moments there.

00;38;58;27 - 00;39;16;19
Samuel Jacobson
I'm going to enter a little later in my 20s, but, but yeah, that's a great point. And another piece is, you know, I love what you brought up about, like, swag. And I should probably be wearing some right now, but I think that's a fun part of our space is like, you know, the sort of the brand affiliation and people get really into it.

00;39;16;19 - 00;39;35;13
Samuel Jacobson
And one thing I would say is like, you know, I've seen there's a certain level of like over-the-top gimmicky stuff, you know, somebody selling bananas. They run around in a banana suit and like, you know, you definitely get attention that way. But, I think, you know, just having simple branded stuff probably gets you most of the way there.

00;39;35;13 - 00;39;45;22
Samuel Jacobson
And you sort of are able to still be taken seriously. So I would agree. Yeah. to go for the just absolute insanity route on, like, you know, gimmicks in.

00;39;45;22 - 00;40;01;27
Daniel Scharff
That you want to be like a company, not a gimmick, right? So that that kind of makes sense to me. Oh, by the way, also, to completely reverse what we were talking about earlier, I have seen pretty interesting stuff happen, though. When people are like, these buyers are going out, we need to go drink into late into the night with them.

00;40;01;27 - 00;40;09;19
Daniel Scharff
Like I actually have seen very strong friendships forged over that. So it's kind of like, okay, I don't know, maybe sometimes you do need to go.

00;40;09;21 - 00;40;28;25
Samuel Jacobson
Yeah. And then usually I'm guilty of also like going home early just because, you know, you get tired of these shows with plays and early mornings and stuff and. Yeah, I mean, I think, look, there's different styles to everything and every buying team, every, you know, every space is different. And definitely there's I have heard the same thing.

00;40;28;25 - 00;40;36;07
Samuel Jacobson
There's certain people that like to stay out late and, that can be a place to do business as well. You know, I mean, the business is based on relationships.

00;40;36;07 - 00;40;53;12
Daniel Scharff
So, yeah, however, they're going to build trust with people, right? I mean, people like, oh, gosh, I would never tell somebody who, like, doesn't want to drink, hey, you need to go and drink and do this. But like, you know, like whatever your strengths are, I don't know, I guess play to those. And if you have different modes that you can flip into that can be good too.

00;40;53;12 - 00;40;54;25
Daniel Scharff
But also like.

00;40;54;27 - 00;40;59;05
Samuel Jacobson
Connect with people in an authentic way. Yeah. However that yeah.

00;40;59;09 - 00;41;20;14
Daniel Scharff
I also I mean, I have a, friend from business school who manages a commodities business in an Eastern European country, and I was there visiting him and he basically his business is one where he just is entertaining clients all the time. And he took me out and he's like, we're going drinking. It's like, oh, okay. You know, and we went and we he just like went to a really nice place.

00;41;20;14 - 00;41;34;19
Daniel Scharff
And they just brought us a full bottle of vodka. He's like, all right, let's just start drinking. Like, okay, I've never done anything quite like this. And then what I noticed is every time he would pour two shots, he would pour a little bit less in his cup and he would put some Coca-Cola into it. And I'm like, what it was.

00;41;34;21 - 00;41;48;07
Daniel Scharff
He's like, oh, no, no, it's just a thing that I do. And then he would never finish it. And I'm like finishing mine. And then all of a sudden I'm kind of wasted and he's probably still got his wits about him. So yeah, you know, maybe if you're going to do that, also think about, you know, what you want.

00;41;48;09 - 00;41;49;22
Daniel Scharff
Water and booze.

00;41;49;24 - 00;42;06;06
Samuel Jacobson
Is also yeah, you know, like I said, you know, for some of these buyers, you know, it does feel like a vacation and you know, they're there to work. But, you know, the pressure's on the brand side. I think so, like, you know, don't get caught up too late and miss your booth in the morning. I think it's important.

00;42;06;08 - 00;42;22;03
Daniel Scharff
Absolutely. I'm always paranoid at these shows. Like, because the buyers are not going to walk by your section twice, they're going to do like, the whole show, right? Is like I mean, it's the size of like one room at an expo, right? Like a one big ballroom. And they're going to do one full lap and it's not going to be 3000 boots there.

00;42;22;03 - 00;42;34;22
Daniel Scharff
It's going to be 300. Right. And if you're not there when they're there or you don't see them or they don't see you, that's probably it. Unless you see them at an event. Right. So I'm I'm paranoid. I'm like, I have my eyes out. Like, honestly, it's I mean, maybe too much.

00;42;34;29 - 00;42;54;17
Samuel Jacobson
There's buyers I've talked to who come in for the morning and go write all their orders and then, you know, after the first day. So, yeah, you got to be on like, every, every ten minute walk at time counts. You know, experience a little bit like, yeah, there is that second chance sometimes of people are still, you know out you know in on the floor and you could run into them.

00;42;54;17 - 00;42;56;07
Samuel Jacobson
But yeah the time goes quick.

00;42;56;09 - 00;43;07;00
Daniel Scharff
The worst is when you're like you're talking to a really important buyer and then another that you want, but as maybe not quite as essential comes by and you're just like, I need it. Oh, I need them too. Oh, and I think.

00;43;07;03 - 00;43;30;04
Samuel Jacobson
That brings to, like, you know, a few things I wanted to touch on that are just, like, critical in the like, preparation stage and what you have at your booth, like. Yeah, I think there's the obvious stuff like business cards, sell sheets, you know, marketing sheets to just, like, physically present to everything that your team is doing as a brand and sort of tell that story in a way that's interactive.

00;43;30;04 - 00;43;51;15
Samuel Jacobson
So I usually have a binder with just laminate sheets that I update every show with, like the latest and greatest from our marketing team. Shout out, you know, we have an incredible team that is really good at event. You know, every vertical and 360 marketing touchpoint, you know, so we communicate all that at the show. But the other piece is, you know like I said, having multiple people.

00;43;51;15 - 00;44;13;25
Samuel Jacobson
So if you're in that situation where there's a critical buyer, but you're talking to a critical buyer, like you can have your colleague sort of keep them warm and occupied, maybe sample them. And, you know, even if that colleague isn't in a position to speak to the account or hasn't been a part of that conversation before, they can sort of connect with them socially and hold them at the booth until you have time to move over.

00;44;14;02 - 00;44;27;29
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. What I would say also is if you're going solo and you need a little bit of help, probably if you drop a message in our startup CBJ slack, like actually, yeah, I have an extra badge. If you want to come help me out, then you can be in the show. You will be overwhelmed with people who are very eager to come and help you.

00;44;27;29 - 00;44;46;25
Daniel Scharff
And then I even at like Expo, I would always like that we did a program at the Wharton School of Business where we got a bunch of intern, not interns, but people would volunteer because they want to come to the show and they would work your booth for a day, and they're smart and, like, great. And they'll just come and pour the samples, and then you can be out there kind of saving your energy.

00;44;46;27 - 00;45;02;10
Samuel Jacobson
That's a great point. And then I mean that. Yeah. For for brands that are not quite ready to make the leap into the show, just getting out there at somebody else's booth and getting the lay of the land so that, you know, because like I said, the first time I went in there, I was going in blind and I made a lot of mistakes that first night.

00;45;02;11 - 00;45;06;01
Samuel Jacobson
So, you know, just being at the show and getting the lay of the land can help a lot.

00;45;06;03 - 00;45;23;00
Daniel Scharff
I love it. And then so let's go to specifically on to like, okay, let's say you get the order from them. So okay typically you go into one of these shows and then the first time you'll start panicking is when they say, hey, you need to load your deal in by like next week. And the show is like three months away or something.

00;45;23;04 - 00;45;42;28
Daniel Scharff
And so, you know, the way it works typically is if you okay for that Kahi show. That's a winter selling show, but it happens in June and they'll say, you know, load in whatever discount you want to be in effect. And the shipping window is like October. So you're saying, okay, I'm offering like a 20% deal or 30% deal, whatever you want to do.

00;45;43;01 - 00;45;55;15
Daniel Scharff
And it's going to count on orders that ship between, you know, October to November. And that's what they're pulling into their stores to be ready for December. Right. Like is that is that generally right or.

00;45;55;18 - 00;46;20;00
Samuel Jacobson
Well, I think we should take it one by one, maybe talk about the structure with unify and then talk about K because, it's very confusing. it, it took, it took me a couple of years to get the hang of like the process. But with unify, you get an email that's sort of a cryptic email that says the table top, print.

00;46;20;01 - 00;46;43;06
Samuel Jacobson
So show portal is open. So printer is a third party company that manages trade show operations. so they contract with print. So just to be clear, if you're like who is for. And so I didn't sign up for this. so you make a log and you go on this show portal and for you and if I on that portal is where you're going to load your, your deal, for that ship window.

00;46;43;06 - 00;47;02;10
Samuel Jacobson
And as you mentioned, the ship window is a series of three months, usually. and then the buyer is going to sort of choose where they want the product to land within that period. So you load in the deal across your line. You want to double check that all of your SKUs are represented there. and then you can actually edit like your virtual booth.

00;47;02;10 - 00;47;27;17
Samuel Jacobson
Some of the business happens virtually. so you can upload photos, you know, put a bio up there, make sure that presentation is correct. you load in your deal and the, the language around that isn't just like, load your deal in here. I think it says, negotiation or something of that sort. And you put in the percentage and then you confirm it, and then they confirm it, and then you're good.

00;47;27;20 - 00;47;47;27
Samuel Jacobson
if you want to do that really early, because there is a deadline for getting that in with you. And, so, so be aware of those emails and look out for them like a hawk. and then generally, what we do and you brought this up before is, you know, we'll match that show deal for that ship window for immediate turnover.

00;47;48;02 - 00;48;11;08
Samuel Jacobson
So if we have an account, if we have product in the warehouse and we have an account that wants to go right away, why would we wait to unlock that account three months in the future? So we just did these shows in early February, right. why do we want to wait until March or till May or June, to load that product in so you can do immediate turnover forms?

00;48;11;10 - 00;48;28;22
Samuel Jacobson
which is just a simple form. You fill it out and send it to the turnover receipt email address. But if you have questions on that, ask the slack. It's our startup CVG or maybe your broker will have some expertise. and that's a great way to get the business going. And then capture those additional months of sales.

00;48;28;24 - 00;49;00;02
Samuel Jacobson
Doesn't make any sense. Why not? To that being said, a lot of, accounts are sort of planning very closely and looking into the future, and they're going to want to stick to that ship window. unit five at both Unify and Key. It's, it's, very standard now to have iPads, on site. my recommendation is to go pick that up, the night before the show starts, when you're registering for your badge and loading some stuff into the show, because those lines get gnarly on the morning of the show.

00;49;00;02 - 00;49;21;29
Samuel Jacobson
And again, you don't want to get pulled away from your booth. so you'll get an iPad and, it takes a little bit of time, I would say fumble your way through figuring out how to load into that iPad and mark the quantities, and then there's room for negotiation there. So if you want to do tiered volume deals, you know, you could say, hey, you know, if you get 15 cases, you get this discount.

00;49;21;29 - 00;49;37;26
Samuel Jacobson
If you get half pallet, you get this discount. If you get a full pallet, you get this discount. And then you can negotiate that on the show floor on the iPad is like an incremental percent off above the, show deal that you loaded in months prior online.

00;49;38;01 - 00;49;51;13
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. And it's really it's good to like, align with your team and maybe your CFO about like, what you're going to do going in because, oh, it's going to get like you're going to be in the moment and you're going to not know exactly. So like have your parameters I know, and there are a lot of considerations.

00;49;51;13 - 00;50;15;10
Daniel Scharff
Right. Because like, okay, in that you can decide your deal for each month like, okay, you need to you like, what's the deal that we'll offer for October and then November or these different shipping periods, it can be all the same for one. Or, you know, I as an early brand, I didn't find that like the virtual booth did much like mainly what was happening is people were coming up and so we could kind of get away with a lower blanket deal and then just saying what we would be willing to go up to.

00;50;15;12 - 00;50;30;01
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. Like you like what you're talking about. Like, okay, so I had approval for, hey, if they're going to order like 10 to 20 cases, we can give them this kind of a discount if we're talking full reset. And this is the first order, it can be up to this amount. The the worst was by the way, the people who had come are like, oh, I'm an eight store chain.

00;50;30;03 - 00;50;40;04
Daniel Scharff
So why don't you just give me a free fill for all eight and then I'll see like, no, man, that's ridiculous. Like, I'm just going to give you $500 worth of product because you're telling me maybe you'll think about it.

00;50;40;04 - 00;51;00;19
Samuel Jacobson
Like that I have, yeah, because there's a lot of people who are just looking for free fills and just, you know, that's a 100% margin for them. Like, why wouldn't they? but there's no guarantee they're going to keep it. So it's nice to have some skin in the game. We usually go for 50% initial fill or I'll give somebody a free fill if they place another order along with that.

00;51;00;21 - 00;51;03;27
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, that's how that's like that sounds like a really smart strategy.

00;51;03;27 - 00;51;29;12
Samuel Jacobson
Yeah. Going in really having a grasp you're going to get grilled some of these older, you know, buyer veterans that they kind of like, putting young salespeople on the hot seat. and so they'll just kind of grill you on pricing and they'll move really quickly, and then they'll, negotiate a deal with you, pretty aggressively.

00;51;29;12 - 00;51;50;22
Samuel Jacobson
And, you know, obviously you want the placements, you want to walk away, with new business. But, like you said, you have to make sure that stays within, you know, your trade spend guidelines. So, yeah, go in sort of knowing your guardrails and knowing your pricing, you know, front to back, so that you can quickly, communicate and negotiate on the phone.

00;51;50;22 - 00;52;09;29
Daniel Scharff
And good for just everyone to know. Probably most people do. But when you're talking about something like an off invoice, like if you're talking about 20, 30%, that's not off, like the price that you sell your case to Kahi or Unifi, it's actually calculated off the price that they're like selling, which includes their margin. So if it's a percentage like, yeah, that's a bigger number.

00;52;09;29 - 00;52;25;21
Daniel Scharff
And then also like just be aware that you're not double dipping, right. Because you might have an off invoice period with them scheduled. Right. Which are these like, you know, 3 or 4 times a year they might be asking you to give like a 15% discount, right? So like if you're not careful you might double dip on that.

00;52;25;21 - 00;52;34;21
Daniel Scharff
So you need to just make sure like okay, I'm gonna offer a maximum of 20% deal. And by the way October is when I have that 15% off invoice. So it'll be that plus five for that period.

00;52;34;23 - 00;53;03;15
Samuel Jacobson
Yeah I think that's a great point. I mean, what's great about the ship windows and the sort of official show deals that you load is they'll automatically roll that over into the total. so they'll back to oh, I out of the total. So if you do a deal on the iPad for 30% and you have an off invoice running in July for 15, they're going to take account of the off invoice and give it a total of 30.

00;53;03;17 - 00;53;31;24
Samuel Jacobson
Yeah. So that'll happen automatically in the iPad. But if you submit a turnover and submit 30% and you have an off invoice going, it could actually double that. so yeah, it's definitely something to be careful about. And I would, I would recommend, you know, when I just with the terms of invoice and manufacturer chargeback, MCB, you know, there's a few you know, you just do some googling, there's some documents that will give you a rundown and you can get a grounding because it's very confusing the whole system at first.

00;53;31;27 - 00;53;56;25
Samuel Jacobson
we generally have like four off invoices a year, and then we'll layer deals on top of that. So there are various strategies you can take. One note I wanted to make is with Kagi. it's slightly different than you and I and that, you know, your off invoice periods will be taken as sort of, you know, fraud deals available to any customer during this ship window if you have those loaded in.

00;53;57;00 - 00;54;25;18
Samuel Jacobson
So if you want a deal available to all customers, you kind of have to load an off invoice with the exception of show only deals, through Kagi, which I think is another invite program. I'm not positive. and those have a minimum of 25, I believe 25%. And so you can load a show only deal which operates kind of like the best deal online in the unified portal.

00;54;25;20 - 00;54;39;27
Samuel Jacobson
and then again, you can do negotiation on the floor. So just wanted to highlight there's a difference in the deal structure between you and I and Kahi. And you have to make sure. Yeah, there have been a couple of times we're at a key show and I'm like, what the heck, you know, did I forget to load a deal in?

00;54;40;03 - 00;54;48;24
Samuel Jacobson
No. That's just like not a part of the thing. You know, we weren't invited to do a show only deal, so we only have ROI and then we can negotiate deals on the for.

00;54;48;27 - 00;55;06;11
Daniel Scharff
Very good point. And, also, I kind of like speaking of invite only or other programs that are available. So the first email you're going to get is going to be to load in that deal. The second one you're going to get is, hey, by the way, we have a bunch of marketing options for you to accelerate your impact at the show.

00;55;06;11 - 00;55;23;05
Daniel Scharff
Wouldn't you like to consider it? And they will send you a full, you know, library catalog of all of the different options that you could select. Right. And it's similar to like Expo. If you see all the sponsorship stuff that happens there, like do you want to sponsor the bathrooms or the staircase or and so I don't know, at least I'd be interested to hear your perspective.

00;55;23;05 - 00;55;47;03
Daniel Scharff
For me, I would look through that whole thing and it would a lot of them would just seem like, yeah, maybe this is kind of an expense I probably would regret. The one that I actually went for that I thought was a really good deal. was for the Kahi show, there was one option where you could send a dedicated email to everybody who was attending, and I think it was like 3000 bucks or out of maybe it's up to five.

00;55;47;03 - 00;56;08;02
Daniel Scharff
I don't really remember the exact number. I think it was 3000 and they would only do four of them total. So I was like, yes, I want it. Can I pick the exact time it should go out? Okay, I want this to go out. like at the beginning of the day before the show. And it was like, pick that prime slot and with just a hit, like marketing message.

00;56;08;04 - 00;56;25;04
Daniel Scharff
And it was so cool because everybody who came by our booth was like, oh, like, hey, I saw your email. You guys are like, sponsoring the whole show, right? Okay, I worked it worked like this because of the timing of the email, because it was the first one to go out, then it was actually like had a really outsized impact.

00;56;25;04 - 00;56;26;10
Daniel Scharff
And everybody thought.

00;56;26;12 - 00;56;31;00
Samuel Jacobson
Don't be surprised if, that slot is not available the next time. That sounds like.

00;56;31;02 - 00;56;36;19
Daniel Scharff
I know I don't. Fortunately, I'm not in a brand anymore, so I can give away all of my own secrets.

00;56;36;19 - 00;57;02;20
Samuel Jacobson
Right? That sounds super effective. I think, as a rule of thumb. And look like I, you know, I love working with you. And I think, you know, we, you know, we support them with the show fee. And, you know, we want to sell a lot of product together. So, just want to make that clear. But, yeah, I think generally you got to be really careful about return on investment for any sort of, awareness marketing plays.

00;57;02;23 - 00;57;10;28
Samuel Jacobson
think really hard about how it's going to impact the sales, because, you know, what we found, I think, is that, putting that money towards.

00;57;11;00 - 00;57;11;20
Daniel Scharff
Deals.

00;57;11;20 - 00;57;15;16
Samuel Jacobson
Is going to result in, in, better results.

00;57;15;19 - 00;57;35;07
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. Then, like, you know, floor stickers. And do you want to be the lunch sponsor? Like, I don't know, I'm not a marketing pro, but to me that stuff seems like, you know, hey, if you like that one, I also have, like, a Brooklyn Bridge in Brooklyn to sell, you know, like I know. Yeah, they need to cover their costs and like, you know, make sure it's.

00;57;35;10 - 00;57;41;20
Samuel Jacobson
Suddenly you're like, on the branded socks that like, the where you're like, you know.

00;57;41;23 - 00;57;47;16
Daniel Scharff
I by the way, all of our startup CPG sponsors out there, we love you. Please keep, you know, working with us for awareness.

00;57;47;19 - 00;58;05;24
Samuel Jacobson
No, no. And I think you got to parse through because, like, we do a lot of like that. on platform marketing with some of our third party e-commerce partners. And, like, it's really effective in that context. You know, there's a lot of intent to purchase. so you got to think about your audience and where they're making those decisions.

00;58;06;00 - 00;58;31;04
Samuel Jacobson
What I find is funneling that, investment into the deals is, is where we're going to get results. but, I think also one, one note I was going to make, so we talked about turnover forms at the booth, I think going into the show, with not just a deals structure, but actually a program, is a really strong idea.

00;58;31;04 - 00;58;58;24
Samuel Jacobson
So, you know, we have a really exciting summer program we're running. We call it, Aloha Summer. It's branded yetis. so these beautiful, branded blue yetis with hot water. and we actually sell those in as a dealer loader. so I'll have one of those at the show, on display. And then if a buyer brings in, you know, 45 cases of product, we'll offer them the Yeti as a dealer, loader to go with the display.

Daniel Scharff
58:58 - 59:01
What does that mean? Dealer loader.

Samuel Jacobson
59:01 - 01:00:10
It's the term for like, an asset, you know, branded bike. You walk into a Ralphs, there's like, you know, branded snow board or bike or, you know, it's like if you buy a certain volume threshold, you get this asset which goes on the floor as a part of the display. And after the display is over, it belongs to the account. So maybe that's a raffle for the staff. maybe the manager falls in love and they take it home. So it's a little extra to get somebody to that volume threshold. And then we pair that with sort of QR giveaways so that we find like those kinds of programs are really successful because then, you know, it's really a talking point. And retailers are trying to make the shopping experience exciting, and bring people into their stores and, and, you know, bring the brand to life. So if you think about it's hard to communicate the lifestyle elements of a consumer product in a retail store. it's easier over social media or digital ads. but doing some sort of brand aligned, you know, display and selling the deal at the show with that, I think could be something really, great to look towards.

Daniel Scharff
01:00:10 - 01:00:50
So speaking of negotiating, because I suspect you're a total pro on this, you know, like, you need to know your numbers and what your thresholds are, but, like, invariably somebody is going to try to push you for more and you're going to be tempted to go for it. Like, how do you actually handle those kind of things in negotiations when they're like, look, it just has to be a number that's outside of your guidelines. And, you know, you're a sales guy. You got targets to hit. And you also or I mean, you're not going to do something you don't believe in, but like, oh, this is a little outside the guidelines, but I think we should go for it. Like how are you handling those negotiations in a moment with somebody who you want to do business with, you want to respect you, and even if it doesn't get done, you want them to bring in your product later or something like, yeah, how does that work for you?

Samuel Jacobson
01:00:51 - 01:02:51
I think there's a few ways. So I think actually, you know, you don't have time to run a calculation on the show floor of like, what's the 24 month return on this investment? Right? So you have to have done some of those calculations, for other accounts in the past. And you get a sort of like, benchmark of like for this level of door count with this ask, you know, I've seen this before and I've seen it makes sense sort of thing. So I think that helps is, is having done the calculations and not know exactly, but have a sense of reference. I think there's other variables that you can use. So oftentimes if somebody is really pushing, you know, the percent threshold that we're generally comfortable with, let's say somebody, you know, asking for 35, 40% something that's just really aggressive, you know, we're going to have to get a lot in return. So sometimes what we're saving on is slotting fees, advertising fees, display fees. So, you know, if you're working with an accountant where they're going to give you, you know, displays, they're going to load in your new skews, you know, you're going to get cold. For us, cold box placement is really important. So if we don't have those in the grab and go cooler, maybe we roll that into the deal and then like the volume that they're taking in, you know, that plays a part as well. So, you know, you sort of work different elements. But I think, you know, look, the honest answer to a lot of these things is you're responsible to be a steward of the business and, you know, you're accountable to your leadership, you know, so when you're negotiating with somebody on the floor, that's you can remind them of that, that like, look, I have these guidelines like there's a certain wall that like I just can't say yes, you know, but let's work together to make this work.

Daniel Scharff
01:02:51 - 01:03:23
Oh, I like that strategy. Like, get them on your team. That's a good one. Yeah. And I, I also, Yeah. You know, what was one year we brought the CFO with us, and then it's like, okay, good. Like, yeah, you gave me these guidelines, but also, like, I want you to know what it's like to be here in the moment, almost like you're at like a Tony Robbins presentation is like feel the momentum and the excitement like, okay, now you see. And they're like, yeah, maybe just do it, I don't know. So, you know, like you and I like sales guys, you know, it's like good to have get some empathy but then good to walk through their models with them and really see the stark reality of the payback period.

Samuel Jacobson
01:03:23 - 01:04:02
Right. And look, I mean, the other thing I'll say is, you know, we're aggressive. You know, when you're a young brand like you have to be responsible with with spin, but like, if it's in service of opening up a bunch of doors that you have confidence the product will work in, like sometimes it makes sense to take a bit of a hit on the front end to open that up and have it run for the following years. So, you know, you got to be strategic with it. and yeah, you're going to have people try to take advantage of you and talk fast and and get super aggressive. So definitely come in prepared and, don't just always say yes for sure. Yeah.

Daniel Scharff
01:04:02 - 01:04:46
I, you know, I've actually kind of found that it worked, I think only had the confidence to do this later on in my journey. But let's say there's one of these, like, East Coast retailers that wants, you know, five cases per store slotting. And I found it kind of disarming for them and also effective if I was like, hey, look, can you just be straight up with me. What's the least amount that I can give you to get this thing done? I would love to work with you. That that's like a nonstarter. But like, I really want to make it work and I can't do that. So please, can you just tell me and then, you know, we can try to reinvest it into promotions or something. And actually, like in one instance that kind of down from five to then two. And he was like maybe even one if you do this other thing. And if I hadn't asked that question, we could have been out for 100,000 bucks or something.

Samuel Jacobson
01:04:46 - 01:05:32
You know, also, you know, reminding of all the other ways that you're investing. So if you're running demo programs like those can can be attached to a lot of spend and like, you know, that's for the partnership. You know, if you're running digital ads in that region, if you have other assets that you can offer, then maybe you have a, you know, celebrity ambassador. You can have them do a secret TikTok shop, you know, that drives consumers into their doors. So think about ways you can add value beyond just straight dollars. But I totally agree that most things are negotiable. You just have to be careful with your leverage and how invested they are in the product, because you also don't want to insult anyone and and have them walk away from, from a deal because you're pushing too hard to bring the cost down.

Daniel Scharff
01:05:32 - 01:06:33
Yeah. Okay. And so just to kind of close out here, let's say, you know, hey, if they are kind of interested for me, you know, my biggest pet peeve is like salespeople who just will give a buyer their business card, like, great, okay. You want this? Great. Contact me. They never do. If you just hand them your business card and maybe a sell sheet, there's they're never going to reach out to you. They don't. Do not let them walk away without you having their contact info. And often they don't really like it. If you ask for their business card, maybe they don't have a lot, or they don't want to give it to you, or they, you know, or they don't. They may not have brought any, but I honestly never had an issue just saying, oh, could I write down your email? And I would write all of them down in my I found notes app. And then then I also could then just quickly make a note about what I was going to follow up with them about. And then after on the plane home, I've got my whole to do list. Knock it out, follow up on everything I'm supposed to follow up on, and have my whole list of leads that I can then talk to the, you know, the business owner of like, hey, look, here's all the stuff that I got. And then, yeah, otherwise, man, that stuff disappears as well.

01:06:33 - 01:07:20
Samuel Jacobson
it was a great point you had in a, in that previous podcast, which was on the plane. I'll do this as well. Do recaps on the blank. What else are you going to do? and you'll, schedule the emails to go out, you know, midway through the following week so they have time to catch up. So it hits them. I mean, I think there's something, you know, you learn with a lot of your sales are over. Email is like catching somebody at the right time of day or the right point in their week can be really important. So waiting for them to be back in office comfortable, they've gotten through their inbox and then it hits them. you know, another thing I do is like just, you know, I'll take down the email sometimes I'll just, hey, can I grab your email and send an email right there? You know, like, hey, Sam, we just met. So then when I follow up, there's already a thread open.

Daniel Scharff
01:07:20 - 01:07:22
Yeah. It's warm.

Samuel Jacobson
01:07:22 - 01:07:39
Yeah, yeah. And they're like, oh, that was that guy, you know. So there's kind of that touch point there. but totally agree. Like I literally I can't tell you probably it's like a point 5% hit rate or less when I'm handing out business cards. So you got to take ownership and control of the communication.

Daniel Scharff
01:07:39 - 01:07:56
Yeah. And which is fun. It can I feel like I'm not like that. Like if I take someone's card and I intend to follow up with them, it's never going to get back. It's never going to get by me. Like business cards are my to do list. You know, I like to physical cards. Okay, I will follow up with every one of them. But I guess that's because I'm on. I'm selling. Yeah.

Samuel Jacobson
01:07:56 - 01:08:09
And I think that's a that's something you get. I think this theme has come up here a lot with like checking your ego at the door and like, you know, when I was younger, I read that book, it's such a cringe title, and I avoided reading it for a long time.

Daniel Scharff
01:08:09 - 01:08:12
How to how to make friends. And then once you I knew it.

01:08:12 - 01:08:37
Samuel Jacobson
Yeah, but yeah, you just sort of like, you know, it's always on you, like, you know, if there's a mistake, take responsibility. You know, like, just make them feel good because, like, the reality is like, you know, that is the power dynamic between sellers and buyers. You know, it's just the reality of the game. So, yeah, I think, expect nothing. And, and take all the responsibility on yourself.

Daniel Scharff
01:08:37 - 01:09:11
I love it, Samuel. I think for anybody listening, it is no, they would have no question why I asked you to come on and give us just this absolute mountain of knowledge about how to crush a distributor show. I think this is going to, like, live in the ultimate resource library. Like, listen to this and you'll be good to go.I wish I had had this when I was going to my first distributor show, or even just considering which one to go to. Is there anything else just to kind of wrap up here that you think we didn't touch on enough that you really want to make sure people understand before going into their first show?

Samuel Jacobson
01:09:11- 01:09:57
Yeah, I think just the last thing is, you know, one of the most important things, which is you know, what happens after the show, and I think, inventory planning can be critical. So if you sell a bunch of products, you got to make sure it's in those decks and ready to ship. so work with your team in the Unified Team, and, you know, forecasting with your team to make sure you produce that product and the other thing is, yeah, following up and doing what you say you will. so again, you know, like I've said, I've made my share of mistakes. but, you know, if you promise something to a buyer, you want to deliver that. and so making sure that because it gets hectic on the floor, the you have clear notes and that you're recapping and you're following up,

Daniel Scharff
01:09:57 - 01:10:17
I love it. And I plan to follow up with you many times to do more episodes and just keep digging into all this cool knowledge. I'm such a fan of your guys's product. I love the episode that we did with, Jordan based before on Hot Water is one of the highest ranking ones that we've had, along with that expo one that you mentioned, which, yeah.

Daniel Scharff
01:10:17 - 01:10:52
So, I mean, just so helpful to give all of this knowledge to emerging brand founders. like, I just I only wish someone had been there to give that to you, like the first day that you jumped in, right? And me too. So thank you. Samuel. I yeah, I just, I really want to thank you and just, you know, really recognize you as I think just, you know, one of the, true people out there, like, you know, out there getting stuff done, you know, and you're like, not like a passive account manager, like you're out there, you know, how to build relationships and go and get accounts and get orders.So it's it's incredible for us to get to benefit from your skills and knowledge.

Samuel Jacobson
01:10:52 - 01:11:03
Thank you so much, Daniel. this was a ton of fun. I'm still learning. and I appreciate the community you built for everyone is an amazing resource, so keep it up. Thank you so much.

Daniel Scharff
01:11:03 - 01:11:05
Thank you man. All right. Bye, everyone.

Samuel Jacobson
01:11:05 - 01:11:05
Cheers.

01:11:05 - 01:12:02
Daniel Scharff
Oh, no, I forgot to hit record now. Just kidding. I've been waiting, like, 30 episodes to get somebody with that. oh, my. Because this was so off the. All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the podcast, today would really help us out. If you can leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I am Daniel Scharf. I'm the host and founder of startup CPG. Please feel free to reach out or add me on LinkedIn. If you're a potential sponsor that would like to appear on the podcast, please email partnerships at Startup CPGs. Com and reminder to all of you out there. We would love to have you join the community. You can sign up at our website startup CPGs.
Com to learn about our webinars, events and slack channel. If you enjoyed today's music, you can check out my band. It's the Super Fantasticks on Spotify music. On behalf of the entire startup CPG team, thank you so much for listening and your support. See you next time.