The Startup CPG Podcast

Kelly Landrieu
The most common challenge I see with a lot of brands that come to us wanting to get on the shelves and who do not get on the shelves is that their product is exactly the same as something that's already on the shelf and that's already doing really well. So we can't exactly swap out a brand, it's already performing for something else that's not there. So it's very nice and wonderful to get into the spot portal and check your ingredients. I highly suggest that. But before you make your foray into Whole Foods market, think really long and hard about what is your value proposition? Who is your customer? All that good foundational stuff that's going to help you articulate why.

00:49
Daniel Scharff
Hello everybody. Welcome to Startup CVG. I am so excited about today's session. It's a webinar we did with two amazing members of the Whole Foods local and emerging brands team. And also George Daines. He was the former beverage buyer from Whole Foods. He's now with our partner cultivate CPG. They're a national broker and a partner of ours. You might recognize their name as the sponsors of that amazing retail sales tracker that we released. It lists all of the chains nationally with their location information, contact info and so much more. This webinar was done live with over 300 people. We get into the Whole Foods overview submission tips, how to do well with them in store, local and emerging versus national submissions, and just all of the good stuff. There was some great q and a at the end, so stay tuned for that.

01:32
Daniel Scharff
And check our show notes for some of the links we discussed, like where you can get free velocity reports from Nielsen, the supplier portal link for Whole Foods, how to find a list of all of their local foragers and all the good stuff. If you want to get in touch with cultivate CPG, you can talk to them about your brand's retail needs. Their email address for us is startupcpga@cultivatecpg.com. Enjoy. First, I just, I wanna thank the Whole Foods team for making time to come to this. And I think when they heard what were putting together here with our partners at cultivate, they were really interested just to make sure that we can get the most information to early brands. Obviously, Whole Foods is such an epic retailer.

02:16
Daniel Scharff
A lot of people launch their brands with that dream of getting into Whole Foods someday and can, you know, just totally make business. And just the information about how to get in there and work with them as an early brand is really precious. And so thank you a lot to both Kristen and Kelly for jumping in last minute, actually, to step in for Casey, who had a conflict pop up, unfortunately. But now we've got the two for one special. We've got both of them here. And I'm going to pass it over to George to introduce the webinar as well. And so George is from cultivate, which is a national broker. They're one of our partners at startup CPG, one of the partners I love because they're the kind of broker who actually will like pick up the phone and call a buyer about you.

02:59
Daniel Scharff
They don't have, you know, like 200 brands on their register. They run in and just kind of run through everything. So we've really enjoyed the partnership with them. And if you haven't checked out the retail sales tracker that we did with them, then I don't know what you're doing because cultivate worked with us to come up with the first ever full list of all the chains out there. So including Whole Foods is on there. We list where are they headquartered, how many stores, how do I submit to them linking to their portal? And it's incredible stuff. And insider information about the account tips from cultivate. So thank you everybody for coming. I'm going to shut up now and pass it over to my man George to kick us off.

03:36
George Daines
Cool. Thanks, Daniel. Appreciate it. Wonderful kickoff there from your childhood bedroom. Who would have thought all those years ago that you'd be doing this, leading this team from there? But yeah, thanks everybody for joining. I think we're setting records here today and thats pretty exciting. I think understandably with the content Whole Foods Market. And Weve got Kelly and Kristen joining. So pumped to have this information to share with you. I know personally its later in the day for a lot of us. And personally, I dont always love sitting through a webinar in PowerPoint. So my goal is to keep this as lively as possible. Weve got a lot of great content. Well move quickly and then I would love to get to the end and have ample time for Q and a because I think we can all learn a lot from each other.

04:17
George Daines
We're all kind of doing the same thing, even if we're in different categories. So that's my goal. But today we're going to talk about Whole Foods Market and how you can stand out. So let's go to some of our topics. So we'll do some intros, talk about myself, and Kelly and Kristen will introduce themselves, and then we'll talk about the companies we work for. Cultivate whole Foods market. Maybe you've heard of them. We'll talk really about the meat of the presentation, which is how to win at Whole Foods, and then how do you stay on shelf once you get on shelf? And then that Q and a that I mentioned. So, moving into the intros. So I'm George Danes. Daniel gave a slight intro of my background, but currently I'm the director of sales and business development at Cultivate CPG.

05:02
George Daines
Prior to that, I have a background in category management. So I was at Gopuff as a senior category manager for beverages there. And prior to that, for about five years, I managed beverages as a senior category manager here in Austin at Whole Foods Market. So quite a bit of beverage experience, a lot of category management. And then for the past eight months, I have been working at cultivate CPG. So I'll pass it over to Kelly and Kristen to intro themselves and jump in.

05:31
Kelly Landrieu
Kelly Landrieu. My official title is principal program manager. I'm still trying to figure out what that means. A principal program planner. However, I've been with Whole Foods for like eleven years. Most of the time with the local and emerging brands team primarily these days I focus on building and leading our local and emerging accelerator program. And I'm super excited to be here. I think these types of community events are really key and part of what makes the CPG world just so special. I came from nonprofits prior to working and working for Whole foods market, and there is something very similar and very heartening about the community and the connection, and that's very largely to organizations like startup, CPG and all the other ones out there. So thank you. Happy to be here. I'll give it to Kristen.

06:19
Kristin Sherman
Kristen Sherman Kall, principal forager on the local and emerging brands team with Whole Foods Market just over twelve years. Moved to Austin a year ago April by way of Atlanta. I was there for five years on the local team for the Southeast. So I'm currently sourcing and supporting local emerging brands for Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana. I see a lot of familiar names and brands in the chat here. Lauren and Granoli. Hey, great. Keith Coffee in Houston. Hope everybody's doing well. Really excited to connect and just share a little bit more about how we work.

06:59
George Daines
All right, great. Thank you, Kristen and Kelly. We will keep it moving. All right, so this is just a quick hitter on who is cultivate CPG. So we are a boutique brokerage. We have a small portfolio of brands that we represent. You can see some of them at the bottom of this slide. That is not our complete portfolio. But just to give you an idea of some of the brands we either have worked with in the past or are currently working with, hopefully some favorites or soon to be. So what do we do at cultivate? How could we work with a brand like you? We work with our brands to open up key anchor accounts across the nation. So we do have nationwide coverage and we focus in on accounts that are going to give you a high ROI.

07:39
George Daines
So in our opinion, you should not just say yes to any and every account that wants to bring you in. You will find yourself further down the road in a place of regret because sometimes those accounts are expensive, they're slow moving and you're just wasting your time, money and resources. So what we do is identify the accounts that you're going to win in then we work to open key distribution warehouses like the Unifi and cahis of the world that will help drive high volume and really build the foundation for success within your brand. And just some of the background of our team. We have folks like myself that have a background in retail category management. We have folks on the team that are former brand founders. We even have people that have worked directly at Unify and Ke. So we have brand experience.

08:29
George Daines
We have retailer category management experience. We've got distribution experience. And those of us that have worked at a brokerage in the past, we have quite a bit of retail experience. I should have added up the cumulative years of retail experience that we have on the team, but it is substantial. And through that experience, we've been able to develop a proven playbook to ensure rapid, sustainable growth for our brands. Tell you what to do that's going to actually provide ROI and growth for your brand and the things that you can just avoid and either not take part in at any point or push down the road to year two, three or four. So that's a little bit about cultivate and I think we can move next to talking about Whole Foods Market.

09:08
Kelly Landrieu
So I can jump in here. Who is Whole Foods Market? I don't think we probably don't need to spend too much time on this, but in reality, the facts are, you know, we are here to nourish people on the planet. Quality standards, of course, is one of the things that we are very well known for. Yeah, Kristen, I'll let you jump in.

09:29
Kristin Sherman
Yeah, I can jump in here. I would say we'll get into it a little bit later, but just kind of a lot of people, Whole Foods market is kind of ubiquitous for a natural and organic grocery store. Our mission, our purpose to nourish people on the planet just keep those things in mind when you're shopping for the best retail partner and your channel strategy. I think I really appreciate when brands come to me and demonstrate the synchronicity and the alignment of who our customers are. You know, if your product really stands out and differentiates yourself as a product, just like Whole Foods market does, as a retailer, you can speak to that. So do your homework and know your audience when you're pitching. And I think that'll definitely transcend into wherever you're looking to get on shelf.

10:21
George Daines
Yeah, those are good points, Chris, and we definitely speak to that in some of the presentation around just the groundwork and foundation of do your homework, do your research before trying to work with Whole foods or any retailer to understand what they stand for, what programs are available and all that. So I think we can start diving into some of that content. All right, so meat of the presentation, how to win at Whole Foods. We're going to start here with key considerations. And I would think of this as, like I just stated, laying the foundation. Just what do you need to keep in mind when you're thinking about cost of doing business? Sales assets for working with a company like cultivate or any other, you know, what do you need to gather as a brand to be prepared to submit and win at retail?

11:06
George Daines
So, cost of doing business at Whole Foods. And Kristen and Kelly, please jump in with any commentary, but what I have here is sort of a broad look. So they really require one case of free fill per item per store. That is their slotting. There's no slotting in addition to that. And then on average, you'd probably want to be prepared to submit twelve to 16 weeks of promotions as well as demos. That is not an exact science. It can vary by category, it can vary by category manager. So just take that with a grain of salt. Ix one setup fees.

11:39
George Daines
That's a third party platform that you will need to get set up for Whole Foods as well as other retailers, where they will gather images and specs and ingredients and all information about your product to make sure that the retailers have it accurate in their system. So there is a fee there and then distributor activation fees. That's a piece you'll have to pay for getting set up with someone like unifier Cahi. So there's really sub costs that go into that. That would be something you talk about probably on a further, deeper conversation. And then seasonal item fees. That was a piece that we had discussed leading up to this webinar to keep in mind that if you are going to submit an item that's not an everyday, but it's, let's say, just a pumpkin spice latte for the fall.

12:22
George Daines
There is a specific fee associated to launching that type of item. And then on the sales assets, something that we would want. If we're kicking off with a brand at cultivate, we want to have a really clean sell sheet and elevator pitch that helps us be armed to start reaching out to the category managers and just give them a quick idea of who you are. What are the features of benefits? How are you differentiated in the marketplace? And what is that one or two page sell sheet that gives them pretty much all that info they need very quickly. Quality samples, ideally final production run. But that's not always the case. Professional product images, UPC cost retail, all the item specs as well as certifications and substantiation of any of your claims.

13:06
George Daines
And then the one piece Kelly and Kristen that I discussed with Casey is that asterisks at the bottom, which is really speaking to cost of doing business. So I know if one of you all want to speak to that, yeah.

13:17
Kelly Landrieu
I can jump in there. So speaking of Whole Foods Market and the cost of doing business with us, we have sort of almost different tiers of how we engage with brands as they're starting out with us. If you're starting in a fairly small number of stores, is what we call a forager brand, right. A brand that is managed by the forager team. Often that free or most of the time that free fill will be waived. There will be a waiver of some of the other fleas, depending on the size of your brand and where you're currently selling. Ix one, fees might be a little bit lower. Another thing I'd say a key thing to consider too, and I know that we've got some really small brands on the call today.

13:58
Kelly Landrieu
If you're really just starting out, there are a few other things to consider, too. Potential food safety audits, the cost of food safety audits, costs associated with food safety audits, and something else there. Oh, insurance. If you don't have general liability insurance, which over my time in Whole Foods Market, I've worked with a lot of brands who, when they first talked to me, they don't have general liability insurance where they're not in a commercial kitchen or a certified commercial facility. All of those have associated costs with them, too. So if you're just starting out, there are things that you need to accomplish just to get to the starting line that are going to be part of your cost of doing business. That first year and beyond, and I will leave it at that.

14:38
Daniel Scharff
Cool.

14:38
George Daines
Thanks, Kelly.

14:39
Kristin Sherman
Yeah, just to think you back on that a little bit, if you're not sure, there's certainly different both, like Kelly said, tiers based on size of business and where we start with wholesale market, but factoring in other things as well, you know, how we designate a brand as forager versus merchant owned based on ownership, manufacturing, distribution, footprint, things like that. And then if you're not sure, I mean, I think the biggest takeaway, which will probably come up a lot today, is to the supplier portal. We have a breadth of information. There's a food safety toolkit where you can learn more about your category, risk bubbles, requirements for audits, insurance, things like that. Doing your homework on making sure your product meets quality standards before it gets to us.

15:24
Kristin Sherman
A better way to get some traction and a yes, and potentially know this isn't ready with limited bandwidth for detailed feedback, I will say as a buyer. So as much as you can do front end as a brand to own and take ownership of your confidence and presentation to the buyer, the better.

15:44
George Daines
Yeah, that's a good point, Kristen. If there's one thing you could take away from this presentation, probably the supplier portal could be it, because that's going to be really a one stop shop for you to get a ton of information and be armed before you go and submit to Whole Foods. So I believe that queues us up for the next slide. Wow, it does. Point number one at the top there, how to win at Whole Foods. Now, we laid the foundation looking at the basics on this slide. You need to register and get familiar with that whole food supplier portal. It is currently updating Kelly and Kristen, I don't know if you have more of a timeline.

16:20
George Daines
I went to a Q and A on it, I think it was last week, and they were explaining that it's being soft rolled out now and then the full transition is probably going to be in the fall. Accurate ish.

16:30
Kristin Sherman
Maybe sooner, but yeah, fall for sure.

16:34
George Daines
Okay, so I have some in the appendix, I have some screenshots of what the current supplier portal looks like just on the homepage and I have it linked. And then I also have the new supplier portal. The functionality is just going to be improved. The information should be about the same, and how you'll use it should be about the same. As I understand it's just going to be cleaner and a little more functional, I think. So, going on the supplier portal, the next point is really understanding when is your category going to be reviewed. So the category review calendar is available on the supplier portal. You can take a look if you have an oatmeal, you can take a look at when hot cereal is being reviewed. How many times is it being reviewed on that category review calendar?

17:13
George Daines
And I also have a screenshot of that in the appendix, but that's something you're obviously going to need to know as Whole Foods is very category review driven. And then as Kristen and or Kelly mentioned, make sure you're reviewing the posted ingredient standards, sourcing standards, packaging guidelines. All the information is there for you to go take a look and make sure you're educating yourself prior to even submitting to Whole foods. So you can literally go into those ingredient standards for food or body care or supplements. And you could each item that you put in your product, you should be double checking that it is an approved ingredient because if you're using sucralose to sweeten, that's an artificial sweetener and it's going to be a no go. And then I would say get familiar with what is available from promos, demos and marketing vehicles.

17:57
George Daines
I have a screenshot of that in the appendix as well that we can take a look at, but there's promotional forms that you have to submit by a certain deadline that all happens, or you get all those on the supplier portal and then you really email to that appropriate alias with the promo team. But you can learn more about demos and that portal and getting registered on how to do a demo, when to do a demo, what that cost would be. So that information is there for you and really important to make sure you're getting familiar because just getting on the shelf isn't enough. You need to then invest in these vehicles to make sure you're driving sales and traffic into the store. And then the last piece I had here was just taking a look on the portal.

18:33
George Daines
There's usually a most recent supplier newsletter webinar that has been posted to the news page of the portal. So sometimes they'll post when seasonal items are due. They'll say, hey, spring seasonal submissions are due in two weeks. Here's some information on what you need to submit. So it's going to give you a lot of info you need and save you headaches if you're frequently checking. All right, so that covers the basics. Before I move on, Chris and Kelly, anything there?

18:59
Kelly Landrieu
I see a lot of sort of questions coming in the q and A and in the chat asking about around how to get into whole foods or how to get in touch with the local forager. And I want to speak to the how to real quick, George, if that's okay or one big consideration, go into the stores and familiarize yourself with what is already on the shelf. I know that sounds overly simplistic, but understanding what's in the category that you're targeting already is going to give you a really good idea of what the need in the category is.

19:31
Kelly Landrieu
The most common challenge I see with a lot of brands that come to us wanting to get on the shelves and who do not get on the shelves is that their product is exactly the same as something that's already on the shelf and that's already doing really well. So we can't exactly swap out a brand. It's already performing for something else that's not there. So it's very nice and wonderful to get into the spot portal and check your ingredients. I highly suggest that. But before you make your foray into Whole Foods market, think really long and hard about what is your value proposition, who is your customer? All that good foundational stuff that's going to help you articulate why.

20:12
George Daines
So? Yeah, that's a great point. And I love when you cover topics that not only do I agree with and they're accurate, but they're also maybe in a page or two in this presentation. So crushed it. Yeah, it's true.

20:24
Daniel Scharff
And maybe if just a follow up. Kelly, I love the topic about like, okay, but how do you meet the foragers? They're like these special people out there that like, oh, you're really desperate to meet in your market. And some people know who they are, some people don't. What's the like for me, I think I always had the best luck at trade shows. And so being there, walking the show, or having a booth at a show, the team is always there. You guys do a lot of special opportunities to get meetings as well. Is that the most common way that people manage to meet the forager and local teams, or are there other ways you see be pretty successful as well?

20:57
Kelly Landrieu
Kristen, do you want to take this one?

20:58
Kristin Sherman
I would love to. Excuse me. And Daniel, am I just seeing my voice giving out? To be honest, not my mic, but yeah, trade shows, you know, really? I think there were some questions in there, too, about the calendar. I think navigating the right place, the, like, integration of place, products and time. When you're submitting the review calendars are posted on the supplier portal. It takes about 72 hours or less to register and get approved to get access to additional information that's posted there. So as we're working through that calendar, which largely is in line with, you know, the category merchants review schedule. That's really the time when we're looking for that kind of product and knowing how to stand out. That's probably the most common these days with how we work and getting visibility. Other than that, we do travel a good bit.

21:54
Kristin Sherman
I was just in Atlanta last week attending the Atlanta market, and we've got a bunch of the team headed to Utopia and Denver in a couple months or next month. Wow, July is almost over, isn't it? And yeah, just how brands show up. And I think we talk a lot about the forager program or being on a different track than a national brand. But by and large, we're really kind of working within that same schedule just because of how we're reviewing our assortment, different nuances within each category based on trends and timing and needs of the category. It's best just to group those up together as much as we can. There certainly are some exceptions.

22:40
Kristin Sherman
If there's a compelling need state or what we consider to be a category disruptor, that's really when we're talking about I saw somebody in here in the chat mentioning Buckwheat, which was one of our trends for 2024. That could be something that we jump on what we call off calendar or off cycle, where we have this trend curve that we really want to take advantage of that might disrupt our usual category review and new item onboarding schedule, but those are pretty few and far between. So staying just abreast of trends and knowing being the expert in your category, I get a lot of questions from brands asking me what I'm looking for, but I'd like to turn it to them to tell me what is compelling or trending or really something I should be watching out for in their product as well.

23:34
Kristin Sherman
So it definitely goes both ways. But yeah, in terms of meeting your forager, I think just again, finding that sweet spot of right place, right time.

23:42
Daniel Scharff
Right product, and maybe I'll just add as a former brand, how I found some success was, yeah, at the trade shows, you can ask the people at Whole Foods like, hey, do you know if the forager from my region is here, and they'll tell you know, they're not there to hide that information. They're like, oh yeah, it's, you know, this guy and he's actually over there, then, you know to look out for them. Also, the foraging team does make themselves available through certain things. We had John Lawson, forger for northeast region, taking meetings with brands at Fancy Foods New York with us, which was amazing. And we hope to do a lot more stuff like that at new Topia. I'm hosting the panel actually with the Whole Foods team. It's a great chance to come and meet them.

24:18
Daniel Scharff
And LinkedIn, I'm like LinkedIn forward on pretty much everything I do. You can type in like forager and the region and they might come up or follow brands who are like you and see when they get into Whole foods who they tag. It's a great way to do it. And probably if you ping them a bunch, they're going to give you that answer of go through the supplier portal and the national buyers will do that, too. But at least they know your name now, so it might, who knows, get you a little bit of better visibility. George knows what im talking about. I definitely hit him up when he was the national beverage buyer and was, you know, making my case, like, yeah, go to the portal. Okay, but like, were friends now, right?

24:53
George Daines
Daniel, didnt we meet at Expo west at your booth in, I dont know, 2022 or something? I think thats when we met. Yeah.

25:00
Daniel Scharff
Yep, thats right. Yeah, were out there. I mean, you got to work all the angles. Like youre booth, LinkedIn email. I definitely got like those. Like, okay, you could, you've emailed us enough, maybe just now through the portal. Like, you know, you want to find the right line there.

25:14
Kelly Landrieu
You know, Daniel, networking is sort of my, it's my number one recommendation whenever someone's like, how do I, you know, how do I get started in this industry? Like LinkedIn guys, LinkedIn industry groups, being involved, getting out there like that is something that you can do. And you have the power in your hands to do it.

25:32
Daniel Scharff
Yes, actually. So for the panelists here, raise your hand if I hit you up. When I was running a brand over email or LinkedIn, all of your hands should be up. I definitely did that. So you got to basically do it like crazy, right?

25:45
George Daines
All right.

25:46
Daniel Scharff
All right. Back to you, George.

25:47
George Daines
All right. So now, looking to go next level, we've already laid the foundation and talked about things you need to do just to get up and running. Now, before you're submitting, what are some things you can do to position yourself to be compelling to a category merchant? Some of the things we've sort of discussed. So I think the first point there developing a strategy that's catered to Whole Foods, that's doing your homework and your research. I think Kristin hit this initially when talking about who is Whole Foods Market. So go on their website, go on the supplier portal, do research on all that Whole Foods stands for, all that they care about, what are the trends for this year, what are their marketing vehicles? And put together a really compelling strategy that is catered specifically to them.

26:28
George Daines
Not just something that you can peanut butter spread or template and apply to other retailers. It should be very honed in and specific to the vehicles they offer. That'll go a long way when you submit that to a forager or a merchant and then getting clear on sourcing, production, scalability, sustainability and traceability, a lot of abilities there. And I think that's really just proving that you do have the ability to launch and you're ready to scale, even if it's at, you know, initially a local metro level, just showing the merchant or forager that you are ready to do business at this scale, whether it's 20 stores or 500 stores, you've got all your checks in place, you've got capital, you've got the supply chain figured out, and you're ready to go, and you're going to fill shelves 100%.

27:15
George Daines
And then the next piece is about innovation. And I believe Kelly and Kristen both hit on this, too. Develop innovation that not only fits in that Whole Foods criteria, but is going to be incremental and differentiated, and that is challenging. It's not something that all of a sudden we're going to give you the answer of exactly for your category, what you should develop. But look at trends and try to get an idea of when you go and shop the store. To Kelly's point, what do you see in that set? Maybe you do nut butters. What do you see in the nut butter set that you think is missing?

27:46
George Daines
That you've talked to people or yourself would love to use on a daily basis and you think could fill a need in the assortment because every merchant has a finite amount of space and there's not just holes on the shelf. And so for you to launch an item, they have to remove a competing item that's already there. So you just need to offer something that's going to be a totally new white space that you're filling that they don't have currently. And you're going to raise the entire category by bringing in this incremental item. And the last piece here is just like, focus on your backyard when at home first. That's where you can control a lot of the variables and you can go out into stores yourself or with your team much more easily.

28:28
George Daines
So if you're based in Austin, go out and sell into local Austin accounts if you're based in New York, do it there, but win at home first on your home turf and grow a loyal following. And then once you have a bit of momentum and you've proven out in your backyard, then take it to a forger or potentially a merchant for that next category review period. Kelly Kristen, anything here? Before we move on, I just want.

28:55
Kelly Landrieu
To stress your win at home first piece. And also when you're moving into new markets, don't just I've seen this happen time and time again. Focus on Whole Foods Market as the primary retailer in that market, see how you can drive momentum outside of the store too. You need to drive that customer awareness, and not just through social media, but they need to be able to see your product elsewhere.

29:19
Kristin Sherman
Kristen yeah, great point. And I would just underline too, just the competitive nature of grocery retail and George's points on, you know, our shelves are already full, so we're not necessarily looking to fill blank space, but what we consider to be white space within the category in terms of differentiation. And what does that mean? We can spend another hour talking about that, but just keeping up on, you know, right now we're really leaning in on regenerative agriculture. Ingredient sourcing matters, especially when you're thinking about categories like salty snacks or beverage. When we're talking about function and claims, making sure you've got a good community of care and consulting groups or what have you, that help make sure your product is viable and protected against unverified claims and substantiated claims, things like that can get a little bit hairy.

30:14
Kristin Sherman
But obviously, baseline has to be great tasting and compelling for customer to try, but you want them to come back and repeat business and sales. And I think underlining that backyard business and maybe even d two c, just proving how you're building that repeat customer base is a great way to, especially when we're taking a risk on something like a new trend that maybe hasn't gone mainstream yet. The more you can just demonstrate and show that it's, you know, on the upswing, the more invested will be to buy into it. Yeah, and then I did see a question in terms of contacting your forager. We do have the full list of the team with each forager's designated area or state listed on the supplier portal. And worst kept secret emails are first name last nameoleshapes.com.

31:08
Kristin Sherman
And we also have our team aliases that you can reach out to as well.

31:15
Daniel Scharff
And the website is supplier dot wholefoodsmarket.com that Kelly posted in the chat for anyone who missed it. And one question maybe for George, is a few people asked, hey, my product could hit a couple categories. Should I submit for both or is that going to piss people off? If it's a shelf stable beverage but we want to be in refrigerated, do we do both? Orlando and what if? I'm not really even sure which category it should be in.

31:40
George Daines
That is a good question. That comes up quite a bit and I see Kelly smiling and Kristen smiling. I think you might get different answers depending on who you ask. I will say my time as a beverage merchant, I was focused on the shelf stable set and then my counterpart was at one point, Aaron Harper and now Charlie. New for refrigerated and were pretty strict on if your product was perishable and required refrigeration. You submitted to Charlie or Aaron in that category, not to me. I wasn't going to take any action and vice versa. So I would say you're going to get that answer quite a bit. There are probably other scenarios where maybe your item could fit and, I don't know, functional snacks and another set that there's possibility there.

32:22
George Daines
If you have questions about where your item lives, you could reach out to another brand that has worked with whole foods in the past. You could work with someone like cultivate or maybe you could get some feedback from the forger team.

32:35
Kristin Sherman
I would encourage brands to think about where you want your customer to find your product and it doesn't necessarily, you know, wants and dreams don't always work out, but we call them fringe categories and they definitely fluctuate. Sometimes things get kicked around, but never hurts to pitch to multiple teams if you're not sure.

32:55
George Daines
So the next slide is really about how do you stand out. We've mentioned a lot of this, so the first point there, Kelly, hit on shop your local whole foods. Take a look at what's on the shelf. Offer something that's truly incremental and is going to lift the whole set. So I think we've hit that home and that is vital for you to be successful and for you to catch the eye of a merchant. I know for me, when I was managing beverages, I wasn't just going to bring in another water. It needed to be a different water that maybe had more sustainable packaging or it had a new flavor profile or there are a lot of things that you can do to create something unique, even in a category like water. So make sure you're doing that.

33:33
George Daines
Shop your local store and then create an avid community. Build a launch campaign that's going to drive traffic to Whole Foods. I think Kelly mentioned this. Utilize your social media following your social channel. If you don't have one right now, start building it, because that is important for you to be able to leverage those followers that are loyal to your brand. And you can go to a Whole Foods merchant and say, hey, I have 80,000 followers on Instagram. And when we launch with you globally, we are going to post six times about our launch and we're going to push traffic in your stores that means something to a merchant because it's creating immediate demand and traffic into the store for the risk they're taking to launch you.

34:13
George Daines
So I highly encourage you to build that as best you can and make sure you're keeping them engaged. And then this next point, ship 100%. Maintain in stocks. I mentioned it before a little bit, but there's nothing worse than being a merchant and taking a risk on a brand and then them not being able to fill pos and causing holes on the shelf because it looks bad for you, it costs sales for the company. It's not a good customer experience all around. It's a loss. I mean, the brand's not happy either. Right? But make sure if you're committing to a certain number of stores, your production, your supply chain is ready to go so that you can fill POS 100% and on time. And if you can't, it really lends to the next point, which is be honest, transparent, proactive in your communication.

35:01
George Daines
Retail is dynamic. Not everything goes right every day, and we always are problem solving, especially on the brand side. And as founders, you go through a lot. So I think the whole Foods team is very understanding. I think retailers are understanding, especially when you can be proactive and come with, here's what happened. Here's our solution, and here's the timeline. Like, for our get well day, this is when we'll have a product ready to ship 100%. So I would highly encourage you to do that and be as proactive as possible. Those are the brands that build trust, the ones that didn't do that when I was a merchant and try to almost sneak around and figure it out and just cross their fingers, that's when things will blow up. And I would lose trust and maybe not be as responsive to emails, potentially.

35:45
George Daines
So be proactive. Build that trust. Kelly? Kristen, anything there?

35:50
Kelly Landrieu
I'll just say something that I heard a merchant say on a panel I hosted recently, which was like, merchants. Merchants are humans, too. They have people that they answer to. So think about how like what? How you would want someone to engage with you being transparent and being honest and the trickle down impacts of things. Yeah. That last bullet, I want to put a star and a highlight and underline emboldened because it's so important.

36:18
Kristin Sherman
Yeah, I'd echo that. I think the last, you know, not doing yourself any favors, it would be to just tell a merchant or buyer what they want to hear and not be transparent, because then it's a lot of collective effort that could implode down the road if you're not all aligned and on the same page with what your capabilities, your supply chain, your production are. You know, we do work with a broad spectrum of brands. We've got a lot of direct store brands that are just selling in usdore or ten stores all the way up to national and unify. So, yeah, like George said, the out of stocks or empty shelves are only going to hurt your velocity when that next review comes up. So just, you know, being proactive in your communication.

37:02
Kristin Sherman
If you're going through a transition or, you know, anticipating or foreseeing any disruptions in your supply chain, just build that relationship and make sure that you're staying on top of it.

37:15
Daniel Scharff
Okay.

37:15
George Daines
And then this slide is really about new item submissions. A little bit more maybe straightforward around how to do it and when to do it. So new item submissions, obviously, that's sort of the gateway to getting on shelf. There's a new item form available, there's a PowerPoint slide that you fill out and then an excel new item form that you complete. And then you would go on the supplier portal, which we have an image of here, and you do new item submission and upload your file, submit it, you get a confirmation back, and then you're in for the review for that category review period. And then in addition to submitting to the portal, you'd want to send one to two product samples to that appropriate forger or category merchant. Make sure you're following the submission deadlines on the category review calendar.

38:00
George Daines
It's pretty clear it's the first column on the calendar. We can take a look at it in the appendix, but it says exactly when samples and submissions are due. And then this last point. Would love to get Kristen and Kelly to speak more about when does a brand submit to a forger versus a category merchant and who owns that decision to launch.

38:19
Kristin Sherman
Yeah, I can speak to that. That's a great question. I would say best thing you can do is just submit for the category review period because we're the forager team and the merchant team are reviewing submissions in line with that calendar. It's not something that, I mean, I think both. However you submit or whenever you submit, if it's not something we can move on off calendar, we'll at least have it on file for that next category review. So that's really the best way. However, I was mentioned, too, you know, being first to market, exclusivity options, things like that. I think those are some exceptions you can certainly consider.

39:00
Kristin Sherman
If we're like, right now we're getting into April 2025, if you're in a category maybe that was just recently reviewed and you've got something hot and new and compelling to present, that's when you really want to get in front of it and potential disruption of that calendar.

39:17
George Daines
All right, we can keep it moving. Thanks, Kristen. All right, so everything we discussed this far is really like the pre period of how do you get on shelf? How do you submit? Where do you go on the supplier portal to learn more about whole foods and creating a strategy that's catered to Whole Foods market specifically. And then this slide's focusing on, okay, let's say you get launched, you get on shelf, you celebrate pop bottles, everyone's excited, as you should because that is a big accomplishment. And then the classic statement is like, that's really when the game begins, because now you're in the game, you're on the shelf, and your goal is to make sure you're moving products off the shelf and getting that sales velocity where it needs to be. So first point here is making sure you sign up for Quicksight.

40:01
George Daines
That is the supplier reporting portal that is available if youre working with Whole Foods, which is pretty awesome considering a lot of retailers do not offer reporting thats available to you on an ad hoc basis as part of just you being a brand in their stores. So definitely make sure you register for Quicksight as you get launched. And then you really want to measure your dollars per store per week and units per store per week. Those are the metrics that in my time as a merchant, I looked at more than anything else. It doesn't mean other metrics don't matter. But really, when a merchant's going through and doing their category view and looking at the water category and I'm looking at all sparkling water, I want to see the items on an item basis. Who's doing the greatest dollar velocity per store? Per item?

40:47
George Daines
Per week. That's kind of a metric that removes all of distribution and gets you down to an average store level. So that a store that's an item that's in maybe 50 stores versus an item that's in 500 can be compared somewhat apples to apples. So definitely make sure you're measuring and monitoring your performance there. Make sure you have consistent and effective promotions, demos and marketing. It's not enough just to get launched and be on shelf. Unless you have like the hottest product ever and some major celebrity influencer, that's a, that probably won't even work. You need to make sure you've got a promotion strategy, ideally maybe twelve to 16 weeks supported with demos so that you have someone going into the store that's going to trial your product.

41:32
George Daines
A lot of shoppers see a yellow tag and they will try something within a category just because it's on sale. Sometimes I do that. So make sure you've got promotions locked and loaded as well as demos marketing. Stay in touch with the core customer, respond to feedback and don't get stale. And that piece is important across the board. As you're a brand founder, I've understandably found that many brand founders, your brand, your product is your baby. You've put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into it. But I would just say try to be as open as possible and receptive to feedback you get from people like Kelly and Kristen and your avid customers, because your product may be great today, but it might need to evolve as time goes and trends change.

42:15
George Daines
So just be open to that feedback and adjusting your product as the needs arise. I put ship 100% maintaining stocks twice because it's that important. So just do that and then develop trust and mutual respect with your category merchant forger. And we talked a lot about that on the last slide. But it is super important for them to keep you on shelf because they know you're going to do the right thing and you're going to grow the category of Whole Foods. All right. And then just kind of a summary. Key takeaways, relationships are key. We spoke to that twice, really hit it home on that last point there and talked about networking and LinkedIn and just connecting more with whether it's groups locally. I know in Austin there's naturally Austin, there's SKU, there's all these different organizations that you can get more involved in.

43:02
George Daines
I mean, we're here with startup CPG, the largest. What is it, Daniel?

43:07
Daniel Scharff
The largest CPG community in the world. Thank you. Thank you for the setup.

43:13
George Daines
Yeah, yeah. So make sure you're networking and getting involved with organizations like startup CPG. Keep doing that. Go to trade shows when it makes sense, you know, with your budget, then be prepared and focused. I think that's super important. I think that comes goes back to making sure you're doing your homework and you're coming to the table for retail like Whole Foods with a very strategic, focused, dialed in strategy on what you're submitting, the innovation you've prepared, the insights that have informed that innovation and your promotion, demo and marketing strategy that's going to support it once it gets on shelf, that all, if you have that buttoned up, that will go a long way with a merchant, especially if you've got that differentiated product that they don't have on shelf right now. Patience and urgency balance between those two. Retail is fast paced.

44:02
George Daines
Its always moving. Theres a lot happening every day. And so there is a need to be urgent and get back to people as quickly as possible. And at the same time we need to realize that time is one of the biggest limiting factors, especially in a merchant role. And so we just need to make sure were being urgent but were balancing that patience of understanding that youre probably not going to hear back same day. And that doesnt mean youre being ignored or youre not important. It just means that their inboxes are exploding with emails. So just keep that in mind. And then the last point is partner with a sales team that's been there before.

44:35
George Daines
It could be cultivate, but it also could be another outfit that can help you make sure that you are following a path that they have already traveled, that you're not going to make mistakes because they've been there, they've done that and they know what works and what doesn't. So I think that's it.

44:49
Daniel Scharff
I like that last point, George, because I definitely have heard of and worked with people before who were just kind of submission pushers and they're like, yeah, we'll submit. And then they just go on the portal and do the same thing that you could do. Some of them, like they have the relationships, the buyers trust them and they will pick up the phone and, you know, help you build the relationship. So, you know, I love cultivate. Definitely falls into that category of people who will do that for you. I have a couple questions that I've skimmed the chat and wanted to surface to you guys. First, George, I know you have a slide in the appendix that's actually showing some of the marketing vehicles. Do you mind flashing that one up? Because I think the visual could help some people.

45:24
George Daines
Here, is this deck going to be shared for the.

45:26
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, we will send the deck out to everybody. Yeah, here you go. Do you mind just like real quick just telling people what these are?

45:33
George Daines
These are the marketing vehicles for the most part that are available. I think there's a couple that aren't covered. We've talked about demos quite a bit. So demos and roadshows, that's really you going into a store or hiring someone to go into a store and make sure your product is getting out there. In the beverage world we say liquid to lips. When it's cold, it's sold. There's some fun slogans, but you need trial and awareness. And so in store demos and roadshows can help with that. And then there's the weekly promo marketing program.

46:00
George Daines
I found that a lot of merchants do prefer brands if they're going to run a big off shelf or even sometimes tprs to at least amplify with a tier two weekly promo marketing placement, which would get your deal sort of as it's pictured here featured in the Whole Foods app, as well as the sales flyer on wholefoods.com dot. So that would run in conjunction with a promotion. Co ops are a larger cost. So I really wouldnt say thats something that brands on this webinar are probably going to participate in. You can see the minimum cost there is 100k. So its usually the bigger players that are a little more established and have a larger budget to play in there.

46:39
George Daines
And then theres some online advertising opportunities now with Whole Foods and Amazon being more and more in sync with each other and doing an omnichannel approach, there's quite a bit that you can dive into with Whole Foods market online and really getting your items more visible there. Kelly Kristen, I'm sure you have more that you could add to some of those.

47:00
Kristin Sherman
I think you nailed it. This is pretty much all of it. There are some other, we're working on some other version really for new and local and emerging brands program called Product Discovery, which I guess is here. But also we talked about some wage fees forager brands and different ways we put we really want our product assortment inside our store to reflect the local community.

47:28
Kristin Sherman
And when you walk in the store, just to feel that when customers in a certain market relate to the packaged coffee that's roasted in that market, or you know, a new blend or variety of a really popular protein bar or whatever the case may be, that's another big one that we're really pivoting away from, you know, supplier storytelling and the people we found to be less impactful to the customer and really leaning into that product storytelling focus that's something really leaning into quite a bit.

48:03
Kelly Landrieu
I'd also say if you're a current Whole Foods market supplier and hopefully you have access to the supplier portal, go on that supplier marketing page because it gives, there is so much information there and there's an email address that you can get in touch with the supplier marketing team. And they are always, trust me, excited to talk to brands. It's what they do. So, yeah, and they can demystify a lot of the pieces and parts, especially around, like, I see the digital screen on the in store advertising, things like that, and help you figure out what the right tool set is for your business. Every business is different, so.

48:42
Daniel Scharff
All right, so next question. A lot of people are asking about velocity and, like, winning at home. What does that mean? Is that about a velocity somewhere or like a store count? So just generally like, yeah, what are you going to need to show maybe to a forager? And then also what are you going to need to be able to show to a national buyer? And for everyone asking about velocity numbers for different categories, I posted a link. We have a partnership with Nielsen IQ Bizer. They have the Whole Foods exclusive on data. You can get three free reports for them. You could go in there and be like, I need to get a velocity report for my category for whole foods. You get it for free with our link. So definitely check that out.

49:16
Daniel Scharff
But, yeah, maybe, George, do you want to start on like, yeah, what's the winning at home stuff? Or maybe Kelly or Kristin, what does winning at home mean forager? And then, George, maybe you could talk about from the national perspective.

49:27
Kelly Landrieu
Kristen?

49:27
Kristin Sherman
Yeah, I can kick it off on a new, smaller brand or forager brand. I like just, you know, it definitely varies by category. When you factor in things like shelf life, like maybe a refrigerated beverage that has a 30 day shelf life versus the condiment that's got two years on it. You know, they're going to have different velocities. So take that into consideration. I like to give just a blanket goal of three. And we look at units per store per week. We start off with like a, you know, a case per sku per store as like an opening po and then look to see, you know, is there, is it moving? And three, I think, is a good baseline velocity starting point. And then it again varies from there depending on the category.

50:09
Kristin Sherman
When I'm looking at velocities, I definitely factor in the market it's in. What's the average? Both for, like, items, subcategory, different, other, like, I'm not going to compare a like ice cream to a Jenny's ice cream in terms of velocities, but what are like brands and other attributes that we can compare to and set the bar from there and that's usually just a conversation. Yeah, I think like I saw a link somewhere in there for Nielsen Insights. I think that's a really great resource for more holistic insights for brands.

50:45
Daniel Scharff
Cool. And George for national stuff, what do you need to see from people? You know, back when you were buying for beverage, like you wanted to see a certain door count and some kind of a velocity traction or you were okay taking a chance.

50:58
George Daines
Yeah, I was going to say that advice, that comment that I made about winning at home to me like Kristen covered the dollars per store per week and that is important. It is so specific to the category that it would vary quite a bit from maybe beverage to olive oil. So I wouldnt throw out like a dollar per se but I more so was thinking build a following, come to a meeting to show heres our product and all these different accounts were winning. Here in Kansas City we're at these farmers markets, these local grocers, we're running these promos, these demos, basically just demonstrating that you have a legitimate business. People are buying your product, you're finding outlets to sell it, you're hustling, you're able to produce and keep it in stock on shelf. Just proving that this is legit. That's more.

51:46
George Daines
So where I was thinking about it, there is an element of making sure you've got the sales velocity for a merchant to be confident to take that risk. But there are times when you have an item that's so innovative and early on that a buyer may take a risk before there is as much proof and the sales because it's so novel and they see the potential for that growth.

52:08
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, maybe almost like you need the data and the store count to like get over a hurdle in the buyer's mind of like okay, this is legit, this is a thing and then they're going to be really focused on your product and like packaging and then really thinking if its the right fit maybe. And then another question a lot of people have is around distribution. So I think a lot of people know that you guys work very closely with Unfi. I think the thing I always hear about is that sweetheart deal with UNFI where its just an 8% markup from them delivering into whole foods in a lot of cases. So one is that a good way for people to think about it if theyre building their p and l or up to their pricing. And two, how open are you to other distributors?

52:48
Daniel Scharff
Maybe especially the early and then also later stage. And like, can people do it direct if they're just really small or do they, do you just all want everybody through UNfi?

52:58
Kristin Sherman
We absolutely partner with a lot of direct to store folks. And then from there, what we call secondary distribution partners by region and it's all kind of based on DC coverage by and large. And you know, we kind of talk a lot about these arbitrary regions at wholesale market like Florida and southwest, pull from Cahi and we've got like rainforest in the northeast and mid Atlantic and those, I think those kind of mid level or secondary options serve a different kind of brand and need state and also for our customers too, based on service level. A lot of them are also working as like brokers and submitting promo forms and things like that. So just kind of weighing out the pros and cons based on where your brand is at and maybe your long term vision.

53:47
Kristin Sherman
I've got a lot of brands that maybe pull the trigger on unify too soon because they want to be national, but it's not always the best time. So just factoring in like your velocities, your category, shelf stability, distribution footprint, short and long term goals, things like that. And then again have that conversation with your buyer on what the best that might be based on where you're at now and looking ahead.

54:12
Daniel Scharff
Cool. Anything to add, George or Kelly?

54:15
George Daines
I think Kristen nailed it.

54:17
Daniel Scharff
Awesome. Got it. Okay. And then maybe just two last questions for me and then we can wrap up here. I know the answer to this is often, it depends, but on margin, Whole Foods margin, you got to build this in when you're pitching and like, hey, here's the retail price and I built in, you know, x amount for you. What can we get away with, guys? You know, I know it's different for different categories, but like, are we going to anger you greatly if we say 25%? Are you definitely going to take us if we say 45%? How do you guys think about it when people just send this over? And obviously it's a hard world out there for a startup.

54:50
Kristin Sherman
I can take a stab unless a good answer, it's a range and it does fluctuate. I think 40% is a good target and that's maybe on the low end. But I do see when we think about more commodity items like milk and eggs, you know, we're constantly have a separate pricing analytics team that's analyzing and reviewing the grocery retail landscape across, you know, other competitors and retailers. And, you know, we ultimately want. We all want to sell groceries, right? So we take it. We factor in a lot of things, different attributes, commodity level type items, and then going upwards towards things like body care and supplements, things like that, pushing closer to the 50 mark, and sometimes maybe a little even above that, too. So not the best blanket answer you're looking for, but that's probably my best advice.

55:48
Kelly Landrieu
I'll say it also, one thing that I've noticed is, because I work between the foragers and the merchants, I kind of work across everything. One thing I've noticed is that when a really small, brand new to market brand shows up with maybe an unrealistic margin, but it's still a really compelling product, Kristen will be more willing, or any other forager will be more willing to have the conversation and say, like, hey, this 10% is not going to cut it. You know, here's some framework. If it's really compelling and sort of fits all those other buckets we talked about on the merchant side of things, if you're a larger brand and you're showing up with a product that's not. And George, tell me if this is wrong from your experience, that's not hitting the margin targets.

56:33
Kelly Landrieu
You should have a broker that's going to direct you in the correct direction there, first of all. But it's also more of a. I feel like that's more of a no go.

56:43
George Daines
Yeah. My advice to brands is you need to be in the ballpark for whatever you're submitting. It needs to be within the ballpark of that category and cultivate or someone else can help advise you on that. But I like Kristen's answer anywhere from maybe 40 to 42. If you submit something that is in the ballpark and respectable, then the merchant can come back and say, hey, I see you submitted at 40. I like your product, but I'm not gonna be able to bring it in unless you're at 44. And then, like, that can happen. But if you would have submitted it at 30, then I think the merchant might have been, and I'm saying 30% margin, then that merchant might have been like, hey, you're not even close. I don't think we're.

57:20
George Daines
Yeah, we're even going to be able to meet where I need you to be. So I would just be conscious of that.

57:27
Daniel Scharff
Great answer. Okay, thank you. Very helpful. I can hear everybody writing that down right now. Okay, and then last question. A lot of people asking about the leap program. So this cool Whole Foods program, you know, really investing in early brands, and a lot of them from the startup CPG community that we've loved to see get into that program. Could somebody explain a little bit about that program and how to learn more about it?

57:50
Kelly Landrieu
Yeah. So Leap stands for local and origin accelerator program. There's two different cohorts on Leap. One of them is an open application program, and that is applications open up once a year. I do not have the dates for next year, but I would say follow Whole Foods market on LinkedIn. Keep your eyes open, because when it is announced, we'll have, there'll be a big press release, there'll be some sort of a movement online around it. It'll be on our media page. So what we're looking for the open application one, and that's called leap early growth. And that's for brand new to market or brand new to Whole Foods market, relatively new to market relatively early in their retail journey. Brands, we're looking for, no, for me, first and foremost, innovative, differentiated products founders who can, who have grit, right?

58:46
Kelly Landrieu
Who have figured some things out. Maybe you're not all the way there, but you're most of the way there. And we can help bring you over the finish line and have you be ready for retail and on the shelf within that year. We only select ten brands. Each forager gets a pick, basically. So there's that program on the other side for brands that are currently selling in Whole Foods market. I think it's, what did we say? Around 120 stores is the Max who are in good standing with their category merchant, have a good relationship with us, are selling wealth. So show some signs of success and engagement in stores and in that program, we really aim to accelerate your growth through education and mentorship. There's a really big mentorship component, a really big education component, and then usually some form of investment as well.

59:36
Kelly Landrieu
That is invite only to apply because basically we don't want to waste anybody's time. If the merchant's not supportive of you at the front, at the beginning, we're not going to have you complete jump through all the hurdles and sit on an interview for us. I would say, however, if you are interested in that program and you feel like you fit the benchmarks for it, let your merchant know you're interested. We'll be doing nominations for that later this year and going from there.

01:00:00
Daniel Scharff
That's a good tip. All right, I'm going to wrap us up. We're just a few minutes over. Thank you guys so much. Thank you so much. To Kristen. And to Kelly, it is very special to get all of these insider tips from the Whole Foods team, current and former. So thank you so much to George again. I mean, just incredible to get all of these tips from the people who have done it on that side. And then also working for the brands George with Cultivate, our partner. I've put some contact information for them a few times. It's here on the slide right now as well. You could probably add George on LinkedIn if you want to do that. And maybe everybody, if you've been listening to my advice, probably you've already sent LinkedIn invitations to all of these guys already. So thank you again.

01:00:41
Daniel Scharff
Thank you. And I'm sorry we didn't get to everybody's questions. We had many hundreds of people on this webinar, so just a little bit too much for us to get to just in this one session. But hopefully we can do this again. And good luck to everybody. I hope to see each and every one of you on the whole food shelves very soon. Bye, everyone. Thank you.

01:01:00
Kristin Sherman
Bye.

01:01:01
Kelly Landrieu
Thank you.

01:01:02
Kristin Sherman
Bye everybody.

01:01:04
Daniel Scharff
All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the podcast today, it would really help us out if you can leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I am Daniel Scharff. I'm the host and founder of startup CPG. Please feel free to reach out or add me on LinkedIn. If you're a potential sponsor that would like to appear on the podcast, please email partnershipstartupcpg.com and reminder to all of you out there, we would love to have you join the community. You can sign up at our website, startupcpg.com to learn about our webinars, events and slack channel. If you enjoyed today's music, you can check out my band it's the super fantastics on Spotify music. On behalf of the entire startup CPG team, thank you so much for listening and your support. See you next time. Time.