The Startup CPG Podcast

Kaitlyn White
I think a big point to consider is just like how picking the right ingredient needs to be right for the individual, the format the ingredient is delivered in really needs to be right for the individual too. In trying to find what actually works, I think there's always needs to be a balance between the format that allows the ingredients to be most effective when the product is used appropriately, so used as instructed, and the format that is most likely or at least easy for someone to actually use. Because you could design the most effective supplement or product in the whole world, but if a person has a hard time incorporating it or sticking with it, the efficacy of the product doesn't really matter.

00:45
Kaitlyn White
And the surest way to figure out how to strike that balance is to conduct research on both the efficacy of the product in different formats.

00:54
daniel
Welcome to the Startup CPG Podcast. We are seeing a huge surge interest in brain health ingredients and claims from products and consumers getting super interested in health and performance in so many different ways, looking to get an edge. So today we're going to dive in. We're getting the 101 on what all the brain health ingredients are and the different benefits of each of them. We're going to be talking about the science, the benefits of branded ingredients. We're going to hear directly from Karma Water, who has taken a super innovative approach to infusing functional ingredients. Thank you so much to our friends at Cognizant for partnering with us on today's episode. They've got a ton more info on their website explaining all of the science. It's really interesting. You can check them out@cognizant.com it's in the show notes. All right, here we go. Hello everybody.

01:44
daniel
Did you ever wonder what kind of ingredients out there could help your mental energy, your focus, and even your finger tap speed for all of you app users out there? Well, good news because today's episode is all about the brain health ingredients. Consumers are buying more of it, retailers are asking for more of it. Startups, you want to get it right. Today we're just going to get all into it. So we have three really cool different perspectives here. So you can hear it from all sides. We've got a brand using brain health ingredients, we've got a clinical lab that can give us the 101 on all the stuff that's out there. And then we've also got one of the leading brain health ingredients that can tell us a lot about the science behind what's going on here.

02:26
daniel
So let's just jump right in and get into Some intros. Kelly, do you mind if we start with you and Karma Water?

02:33
Kelley Bridenbaugh
Yeah.

02:33
Kelley Bridenbaugh
And thank you, Daniel, so much for having us today. So I'm Kelly Breidenbaugh. I am the marketing manager here at Karma Water. So I lead our brand strategy, our partnerships and all different consumer touch points from retail in aisle to our digital campaigns. Really just trying to focus on how we can connect functional wellness with our everyday consumers.

02:54
daniel
All right, amazing. And can you give us a sense for the stage of the business? Like how big are you guys? How many doors or people or, you know, how can people think about it?

03:03
Kelley Bridenbaugh
Yeah. So Karma Water we actually launched in 2011. We launched just with a wellness water, so vitamin enhanced. And then in 2016, we launched our probiotic water. And then Most recently in 2023, we launched our Karma Energy water which is powered with cognizant, which we'll be talking about later. Small but mighty team here. Only about 20 people, but we are nationwide. We have distribution also in Canada, Mexico and Costa Rica. And we're always trying to be on, you know, the cutting edge of innovation and seeing what's next and looking to expand.

03:40
daniel
That is awesome. And at some point I want to hear every invention in the world that was come up with, wow, people were powered by Karma Water. I'm sure you guys can track that.

03:50
Kelley Bridenbaugh
Yes, of course.

03:51
daniel
Okay, Caitlin, let's come to you next and learn about radical science.

03:56
Kaitlyn White
Yeah. Hi, I'm Caitlin White. I'm director of scientific affairs at Radical Science Radicle. We're a health tech company that runs large scale clinical trials to help with research and development of new products and claim substantiation for different wellness products. My background personally is largely in cognitive science, so today's topic is pretty near and dear to me. So very happy to be part of the conversation.

04:20
daniel
So you guys are the scientists out there and you know, brands. If they're like, we believe our product does this, the ingredients should do this. You guys can go out there and test it and people can understand if it does really what you think it can do.

04:32
Kaitlyn White
Yeah, exactly. It's, you know, there's certainly steps to it, but it's the gist, right?

04:37
daniel
I. Yes, I do over simplify things. That's true. Okay, Katie, I am coming to you and Kiwa, do you mind giving us the intro on Kiowa and Cognizant, please? Sure.

04:47
Katie Emerson
So, hi everyone. I'm Katie Emerson. I am senior manager of scientific affairs at Kiwaku usa. We are an ingredient supplier where we have a lot of different branded Ingredients Cognizant is all about today. But we also have Setri lutathione, which is very cool. If you ever want to talk about that. My background, registered dietitian, working on my PhD in exercise science. So while I love sports, I actually love neuroscience, too, and I love how the two overlap. So it's a really fun sport space where we can talk about mental performance and how it translates to physical performance.

05:18
daniel
All right, I love it. Well, let's get right into it. So, Caitlin, I thought it would be cool to maybe come to you first. So I wonder, can you just tell us about the brain health ingredient space? Like, well, how come people are getting so interested in it now? And what are the products out there trying to do?

05:35
Kaitlyn White
Yeah, well, brain health in general, you know, is a big umbrella. It shows up in how we think and how we learn, how we make decisions, how we regulate our emotions, how we move, how, like your click, speed the apps, how we're sleeping, how we connect socially. It's really hard, if not impossible, to think of something that we are doing that doesn't somehow involve our brain health. And the best ways to support our brain health really varies by life stage and from person to person. So, like most things, I think that there's probably a lot of different reasons why brain health or interest in brain health is so up right now. But touch on a few. I think people have a lot of cognitive overload.

06:13
Kaitlyn White
We have more screens, more multitasking, more time being on right now, and that comes with a lot of stress. The prevalence of anxiety and depression is currently up right now, too. I know following the pandemic, we saw up quite a steady rise in that. And that's not even to mention the fact that we're an aging population. So it makes sense to have concerns around cognitive decline rising as well. And I'd say that concern is pretty well founded. There's an order of something like 10 million new cases of dementia every year, and something like 58 million people worldwide already have dementia currently, and it's the leading cause of disability and or one of the leading causes of disability and dependency among older adults.

06:54
Kaitlyn White
So I think all of these experiences, combined with our increasing understanding of brain health and nutrient needs, people just seem to be increasingly more aware of what our brain health is, of their individual brain health, the importance of protecting it, and the ways that it is impacting them day to day. And so many of the products out there right now are aiming to help people get the nutrients that we need or to add in something new for you know, additional effects. And I've seen products that are aiming to some more many different areas of brain functioning, from the long term protective support to more quick acting products aiming to improve daily function, you know, like our memory and our focus.

07:33
daniel
Well, Caitlin, I definitely think you're right. And even you mentioning about all of the different screens stresses me out. I'm like, oh yeah, I gotta check all that stuff after this. So I think you're definitely right. And I also, I mean, caffeine also has just been on such a tear lately. I think for a lot of the reasons that you mentioned, like coming out of the pandemic, people like home working just as much as ever, but also now like have their family stuff to deal with at home. More and more hustle culture out there, everyone trying to like, you know, do more. So it's interesting to think about it as it might relate to caffeine where you see things like Celsius getting used so much more because people also need to work out more.

08:09
daniel
We were all probably a lot less healthy during the pandemic. Trying to get back somewhere. I know I am. But you know, when it comes to brain health, it's like, yeah, we want the performance for the same reasons we want the caffeine. Right. We need to be sharper on the job or for whatever stuff we're doing. But then also there is just the like long term health perspective of people want their brains to be healthier for a lot longer also, which I would say is what would probably separate it from something like caffeine. Right. Which would be kind of a short term impact. So it's pretty interesting to think about it in that perspective. Definitely makes sense why it's growing so much. So what are the main ingredients people would look to now for brain health and what's the story with each of them?

08:52
Kaitlyn White
Yeah, well, I mean there's so many out there right now. I think a few of the main ones that are really common for people to think of specifically around their brain health and cognition. Omega 3s are one of the most common ones that I see for their potential to improve just cognitive ability and then protection against cognitive decline as we age. B vitamins are also mentioned or used pretty often for their potential to preserve and protect cognitive functioning again as we're aging. There's also antioxidants like vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin E, minerals like zinc, which can help protect against free radicals and support memory and concentration. Vitamin D is another good vitamin in there for supporting Mood and potentially cognitive function.

09:35
Kaitlyn White
Another big ingredient, a lot of vitamin D choline that we'll be discussing today is a common ingredient for its potential protection against dementia and Alzheimer's and the role it plays in memory and mood and cognitive function. Magnesium is a big one. I feel like I've been seeing magnesium everywhere lately. Largely, I've been seeing it for stress and sleep. Ashwagandha is another one of those I'm seeing all over the place for memory and focus, well being, sleep, stress. So all of this, you know, your brain health is so interconnected. I feel like it's so common to find that these ingredients may be for a few different cognitive related outcomes. Creatine's another really big one right now. Yeah, go ahead, Daniel.

10:17
daniel
Yeah, I'm on that creatine build for sure. I mean, I don't know, it's. I. I feel like I never quite know what is placebo versus what actually works. But for me, creatine, I feel like, has been very important for like, just, I don't know, like, you know, like, I take it and then I go to the gym and I'm just like, I can lift much more. And I don't know if that's because I've broken free of the shackles of what I felt like were my constraints or actually, it's just really helping me a lot. But e. I am much stronger now. Okay. So, Caitlin, I wanted to ask you, how does it typically go when you work with brands? Like, what's the best way for them to start working with you?

10:54
daniel
They start with like an objective, they work with you, they create a study or, you know, how do you get to that point where you figure out if you're going to get the outcome that they are expecting or hoping for?

11:04
Katie Emerson
Yeah.

11:04
Kaitlyn White
Well, I'd say the most important thing if you're a brand working with a research organization is to know the question that you're really trying to answer or the thing about your product that you want to show. Whatever that goal is will really determine the whole trial methodology and the analysis approach. And if your goal is to show the effect of the product in the clinical trial, a really great first step to that is to first understand the health areas that you expect the product to impact, how the product works, or at least the general timeline that it works on, and then the people that the product works for. But oftentimes, though, you aren't able to know the answer to these questions until you start working or conducting the research.

11:44
Kaitlyn White
So in working with a research organization, coming with as much understanding of the product at the beginning as possible is helpful for initially considering the trial design. But from there the research really works best when it's an iterative process. So it's absolutely possible that, you know, you find the effect that you're looking for of a product in the first trial you run. But I do think it's common for brands to not get the outcome that they were originally expecting in that first wave of research on a formulation. And luckily the search to show the effect or whatever you are trying to answer does become easier and more informed the more research you do. Especially if you're conducting large trials that have large diverse samples.

12:24
Kaitlyn White
So you can do different exploratory analyses, see who's benefiting, see the different health outcomes, and get a map for the next phase of research.

12:31
daniel
So Katie, from Kiawah's perspective, because I know you guys are deep in the science, is that kind of how it goes with you guys or is that typically at your experience of the process?

12:40
Katie Emerson
Yes, but sometimes I will say that it is led by what sales is seeing or what marketing is seeing. So they may come to me and say we see a market trend in this area. Do one, do we think our ingredient can tap into it from a science stance? Two, is this a profitable area? Like should we invest? Because research is not cheap and it is exploratory so we're not guaranteed to get the outcome that we want. So I think what Caitlin was saying is absolutely true. For an ingredient supplier or a finished good, start with like a proof of concept, study and explore everything.

13:15
Katie Emerson
Like have a very diverse population, don't worry about primary and secondary endpoints, but just like what is happening, whether you're looking at acute effects or chronic effects or what is happening in men versus females, like be open to the fact that you're probably going to fail in several areas because ingredients aren't meant to be perfect in every way. But it gives you a roadmap of where your ingredient is working and then it kind of starts to tell a story of how it's working and then you take the next step into like a full blown human clinical trial where you power it appropriately and you have that one question that you want to answer. So yeah, it is driven by marketing trends and what the sales wants to sell.

13:53
Katie Emerson
But Caitlin's completely right that you have to kind of start understanding what your ingredient and product can do and then you go further from there.

14:01
daniel
That makes a lot of sense. And I guess, I mean Caitlin, it's gotta be somewhat common that people may not get the result that they're looking for. They could get disappointed or just come up with a really surprising result, right?

14:12
Kaitlyn White
Yeah, absolutely.

14:13
daniel
So just coming back to effectiveness a little bit. Cause you guys have done so much research in this area. There are a lot of different delivery formats, right? There are more like supplements out there, capsules, you know, there are ready to drink, you know, beverages that are using a lot of ingredients as well and making claims they're gummies. So, Caitlyn, you guys look at all of these different products, different formats that the products come in as well. So my question is around that, like the delivery formats, whether it's a supplement, like a capsule, or a company doing an RTD ready to drink beverage, and they are making claims around that. We've seen a lot of that. Or gummies even.

14:52
daniel
How should a brand decide about the format of the functional product that they're making and thinking about, like its efficacy and convenience for the user, all of that?

15:02
Kaitlyn White
Yeah, I love this question. I think a big point to consider is just like how picking the right ingredient needs to be right for the individual. The format the ingredient is delivered in really needs to be right for the individual too. In trying to find what actually works, I think there's always needs to be a balance between the format that allows the ingredients to be most effective when the product is used appropriately, so used as instructed, and the format that is most likely, or at least easy for someone to actually use. Because you could design the most effective supplement or product in the whole world. But if a person has a hard time incorporating it or sticking with it, the efficacy of the product doesn't really matter.

15:40
Kaitlyn White
And the surest way to figure out how to strike that balance is to conduct research on both the efficacy of the product in different formats, as well as how well people are able to follow the instructions of the product in different formats.

15:53
daniel
Okay, so Kelly, it might actually be great to tap you in on this kind of format question as well, because you've got Karma Water. It comes in liquid form, and it also makes functional claims. Can you talk a little bit about your decision to go with the liquid format and how. What? Tell me about the efficacy of something like that and how people perceive it.

16:13
Kelley Bridenbaugh
Yeah, well, it's a really unique crossover here because while we are ready to drink, our delivery format is we have a patented push cap. So we protect all of our ingredients and we keep them separate from the water so that we can actually deliver them at peak potency and they can have the full efficacy. So our CEO CJ Rapp, he was the inventor of Jolt Cola back in the 80s. He's a big beverage guy. He noticed that other brands can't always guarantee that you're going to be getting all of the ingredients or all of the probiotics or the vitamins, whatever it is, at full potency. So by keeping the ingredients in a dry powder form until the consumer is ready to drink it's keeping it protected. This is also UV protected cap as well.

17:02
Kelley Bridenbaugh
So it's not going to break down sitting on a shelf, being exposed to different elements. So when the consumer is ready, they peel the sticker and they push straight down. And that infuses all of our active ingredients. And that, as a brand, is our way of knowing and delivering a promise of wellness and knowing that you're going to get 100% of all of the ingredients, all of the nootropics and vitamins that we do. Promise.

17:26
daniel
Boy, that's cool. I would feel like a scientist doing that also. Like, I peel the cap and push this cap down, and then all of a sudden, look at this incredible mixture. That happens the same way where, like, when I feed my dog food in the morning, I feel like a total chef, even though I'm just scooping out from the tin like it's voila.

17:47
Kaitlyn White
Yeah.

17:47
Kelley Bridenbaugh
We think of it as a transformative experience. The consumer has a role to play in it. They get to push the button. We always find that consumers have younger children, you know, they call it magic water, and they want to, you know, see it transform from just water into an actual functional wellness beverage.

18:03
daniel
Okay, perfect. Okay, Caitlin, just to wrap up a couple last questions with you, can you give us just some examples out there of products that are focused on brain health that you think people might recognize? Just some examples.

18:16
Katie Emerson
Yeah.

18:17
Kaitlyn White
I keep getting commercials recently for Ollie. They seem to have a lot of different product types like lollipops and chews. So that's definitely one that I at least would recognize. I'm assuming other people are seeing the commercials as well. Recess and Trip are two drinks that I've seen. Those are those magnesium drinks I was talking about that seem to be for calming. Largely. I've tried. Recess is very good. Nereva and Alpha Brain, I know are products that are there for cognition with. I think they both come as capsules you can find. And then personally, going back to the creatine discussion, I have been using sports research creatine lately. Can't compare it to any. I don't. Can't speak to that. But I've liked it.

18:58
daniel
All right. Very cool. Yeah. I've been trying to play around with some supplements also, and, yeah, I think the format is so important. There's a creatine that I'm taking that, to me, is basically tasteless, and I've had others that do have a flavor that I didn't like as much. So I'll just do the tasteless one, and it's easy for me to stick to that. And then I found a protein powder that it just tastes good, like, but it's also very clean. And then I tried another supplement, but it's kind of clumpy. I'm like, I don't know. I'm gonna stop taking that format. I don't enjoy that as much, even if there are some benefits. So, yeah, it really has to work for each individual. Katie, let me tap you in here from the ingredient perspective.

19:33
daniel
So Keoa makes Cognizant, which is probably the best known brain health ingredient out there. It's the branded form of cytokoline, which is designed to support brain neurotransmitters. So can you give us a little bit of the primer on this? What is cytocholine? What is Cognizant? How does a branded ingredient differ from a generic form? All the good stuff.

19:56
Katie Emerson
Sure. I think, first and foremost, my marketing team would love the fact that you just named us, like, the most recognized and best brain health ingredient there is.

20:05
daniel
Most recognized by me, that's for sure.

20:07
Katie Emerson
Well, that's our goal is, like, we want to become mainstream, and we don't just want to be in beverages and capsules, but we want to be in chocolates and protein bars and the Ollie lollipops. My daughter actually took my last one off my desk yesterday, so I'm a little sad I have to buy a new box. But, no, I agree with you. And that is literally why I came to Kiwa Hako usa, because I think they have an ingred that is so universally accepted and great for so many different things that we'll. We'll touch into. But, like, first and foremost, citicoline, also known as CDP choline, we have the branded form Cognizant. So it's a really unique nutrient that crosses the blood brain barrier, and it. It does provide 20% choline.

20:47
Katie Emerson
So you're gonna get those wonderful benefits that everyone talks about in the brain space, as well as the phospholipid metabolism and production, and that's really important for neuronal cells so that overall will translate into better Cognitive function, long term brain health. So whether you're looking for the later, which is not always easy for people who are looking for products because you typically don't take something today for 20 years down the road. Although we should. So what's so great about cognizant is that there's also acute benefits too that are going to work on focus and attention and then memory and then from the sports angle there's reaction time where you were talking about the finger tap test and motor function speed.

21:25
Katie Emerson
So like we're still learning the ingredient, we are still doing a ton of clinical testing, whether it's human clinicals or looking at in vitro. We've even done some gene mapping study to really understand what differentiated genes are being expressed, which is like the coolest thing. I'm such a nerd when it comes to this. Like I sit there and I'm learning about the gene bioenergenics, the pathway, like how it's working on mental energy in the brain and. But then your next question, why we did the gene mapping study was to differentiate between a generic form of cytacholine or the individual components, which is like choline and citade versus the compound of citicoline, that is a nucleic acid. So seeing how those react differently in the body is really important to us. And so we have explored that and we are publishing soon.

22:12
Katie Emerson
So that's a little carrot of a teaser for everybody. But when it comes to that generic form, it really comes down to quality, purity, potency. Like when you see cognizant on a brand, on a label, I should say representing a brand, you know that what you're getting is exactly that we did in the clinical setting. Like we would do radical science, right? Like so you know, those effects that we saw in the clinical setting can be translated to a real world application. And that really overall just kind of hones in on why people want a branded ingredient is because it's trusted, it's respected and we have the data to back up student stability, bioavailability, quality, impurity, like all of the things that you want, right?

22:54
Katie Emerson
So you could get generic, it's a similar compound or you can get the branded form which you know what you're going to get at the end of the day.

23:01
daniel
I think the thing that I wouldn't know as well is how often it would be recognized by consumers out there. So I mean, because I see it always on the front and back of the products, I think that use it, you know, one that comes to mind is Magic Mind. Yeah, they use it. They've been on this huge tear lately, growing really fast. I see their Instagram ads also that I guess must be targeted towards me at times. They have one with Pete Holmes from that show crashing. I mean, you know, he's not necessarily there talking about the specific ingredient. I think he's talking more about Magic mind in general, but he's just talking about how helpful it is for him to focus and be alert and do his job and all that kind of stuff. It's very compelling.

23:41
Kaitlyn White
Yeah.

23:42
daniel
So how much do you think consumers like. Yeah, they specifically know to look for cognizant. Or maybe it's just that it looks really good and makes them feel like it's trustworthy. Or maybe there are some really influential, well informed consumers out there who know what it means and then, you know, their opinion will kind of germinate out to everybody else.

24:01
Katie Emerson
Yeah, that's something we are definitely working on. And the marketing team has a survey to actually pinpoint which demographic. Males, females, you know, is it women in their 40s or is it males in their 18 plus category? Which ones are actually resonating with the brand itself or even, you know, feeling like there's like a connection between brain health. So they have all of those statistics. I think we're actually. I just reviewed some of it that's going to be put into a press release for supply side goble. So again, another carrot to pay attention to. But it's really interesting and it helps us to understand our demographic and who we should be testing in the clinical sense. Right.

24:39
Katie Emerson
So if I know a middle aged female sees a product that has cognizant and is directly targeting it for focus and attention, that's what I want to test and who I want to test in the clinical stance or if I know that it's a young male who is looking for sports and human performance, maybe I should be targeting a sports performance for men. So being able to understand who's seeing the brand on a label and who is resonating with it is really important for us. And I really love to see the social media things like you said with Magic Mind because like bomb, I don't know if you can see behind me the whole top row is bomb energy.

25:17
Katie Emerson
I resonate with them not because of Chris Bumstead, but just because I love the fact that they have fun flavors and it's like a substitute for Coke and Sprite and things like that. So I think that's what's really important is not just the individual ingredient and brand, but what the overall product is saying and how they're marketing it to other people. And I think Kelly with karma does a really good job with that too. So anything and everything that we can say individually is good, but ultimately it's that final finished good, like what they're saying.

25:49
daniel
Okay, so that makes a lot of sense. And what about the dose levels? I mean, is that something consumers understand? I mean, I can say for creatine, that is probably the only product that I actually know how much experts recommend. And I just happen to know that it even then that number, though, is different in the US versus Canada, which a brand explained to me, like, I think it's 5 milligrams or something in the US and three in Canada. And it's one of those things where having more than that doesn't really help you. Like, you don't want more than, like, that's just the amount. If you want to take it, that's the amount to take.

26:21
daniel
Whereas there are other ingredients out there, I think, where like, hey, you want like more caffeine, it will do more things to you know, a higher level of it. So for something like cognizant, is that, is it a standard dose that everybody would understand, or it is more scalable or malleable? What do you think?

26:38
Katie Emerson
Yeah, it's definitely, we're learning is more scalable. If you're looking at mechanistic actions like just working on phospholipids or working on acetylcholine levels, you can do that as low as, like, say 75 milligrams a day. But what we do see is when we do these outcome studies, they're around 250 milligrams a day. And so we tend to base our claims on that dose. But what we're seeing is when we actually up it to 500 milligrams, we're seeing differentiation in the benefits. So focus and attention is 250. But like mental energy or the motor function speed, reaction time, those are more 500. So it's like as we start to increase the dose, we're seeing changes in the brain chemistry and seeing those outcomes reflected in a clinical research stance. And there are studies at a thousand milligrams that are showing even more benefits.

27:27
Katie Emerson
So we do have a grass at 2,000 milligrams, but it is like such a really safe ingredient that you can even go above that. But we do stick to our grass ruling. So, yeah, it is a sliding scale, you know, and we kind of help our brands with that too, by saying, what is it you want to say? And we'll give you the recommended clinical dose that's appropriate.

27:46
daniel
And I could just kind of wonder because, okay, caffeine, honestly, for me, it's not that I necessarily feel it right away. Like I have coffee every morning, I love it so much. But I don't know if I like necessarily feel that in a way where I'm like, immediately, okay, I just had the caffeine and now my brain feels differently than it did before. Like, I have my whole morning ritual. I feel good when I start working, but it'd be hard for me to like point to something like that. I feel like maybe because I just have had so much caffeine in my life, I don't know, or I'm a bigger guy, maybe I'm more immune to it. Do you feel like the dosage levels for different people would be pretty different or is it more consistent?

28:23
Katie Emerson
Yeah. So first of all, with the caffeine, you may not be. There's certain genetic dispositions for people that are like fast metabolizers for caffeine versus slow metabolizers. So you might be one of those people. But for cognitive, just throwing it.

28:36
daniel
Out there, that's good to know. I thought you were gonna say you're just so high energy, that'd be hard for you to use a. For a secondary source for that.

28:43
Katie Emerson
I feel it like I'm ready to go. Depending on how fast they drink it too. And of course, how many milligrams are there? But with cognizant, that's such an interesting thing that you said, because that going back to what Caitlin said about knowing who you're testing, knowing how they're going to respond to the ingredient, it's all about learning. So we do have an adolescent study, so this is that younger demographic that we're not used to testing. 13 to 18 year old males. If you look at a 13 year old male versus an 18 year old male, they're going to be very different and just everything physiologically, you know, when you're talking about puberty, how much muscle one has and they have their height growth like spurts.

29:21
Katie Emerson
So dosing wasn't really on the radar during time of study design and just went with 250 arm and a 500 milligram arm. And then afterwards when they started unraveling the data, they're like, huh, there's kind of a dose response going on here. So we started to do like different calculations and formulas to see, oh, Certain weight responds differently. That was a pediatric population. Probably should have dosed it. For pediatric population, you live and you learn, right? Like, so now we know. If we ever go back to that demographic, we know to dose it per weight.

29:57
Katie Emerson
Now when you start to get a little bit older and you know we're not fluctuating our weight as much between, you know, five to 10 years, depending on physical activity and diet and all the other factors, of course, we are finding there is a consistency between the 250 and the 500.

30:13
daniel
Okay. I think since you said you're so responsive to caffeine, we should just do a live experiment right now. Grab some of those energy drinks behind you. Let's just go one and then the next and we will all rate your energy level.

30:26
Katie Emerson
I actually did a podcast and I was, were sipping and sampling and I had almost, I don't know how many of each one. And by the end of it, I was so ramped up, I was like, I gotta go, I gotta get off.

30:38
daniel
Just ran circles outside. I love it. Okay, last one for you. And then I want to chat a bit more to Kelly about Karma Water. What are some of the products people might know that are out there using Cognizant if they haven't seen them in person, or might not know that they have cognizant in them?

30:54
Katie Emerson
This is one of my favorites. It's goalie Matcha. Yeah, Matcha Mind Gummies. I leave this on my desk because in the middle of the day, like, if I just feel like I'm starting to like, lose focus and productivity and I'm like, I am just bouncing between screens. I take three gummies and I actually don't feel it right away. But what I do notice is at the end of the day, I'm like looking back at my checklist and seeing, okay, what do I need to bring into tomorrow? What did I get accomplished today? I'm like, wow, it was really productive today. And, and the days that I don't do that, I realize there's a significant difference.

31:27
Katie Emerson
So it's not like you said, for some people that feel the caffeine rush right away, it's almost like an absence of feeling it to where you're reflecting going, huh, I was actually really productive today. Or other people around you. We've had study participants when we did that, middle aged females, the husbands were like, I don't know what you're taking in that study, but you should take more of it. And so it's almost like people Are like, do you feel it? Is there experiential feeling? Well, that's variable for each person individually. But to know that you recognize it later when you're not taking it or when people around you are recognizing it's kind of cool. So that's my favorite product. I do have the karma drink. I just haven't opened it. I do love the bombs. The lollipops are really cool.

32:07
Katie Emerson
I think those are just such a fun application. They're different. Right. People don't expect to get health benefits from a lollipop. So that. And it's a Jolly Rancher watermelon flavor, which is like my all time favorite.

32:19
daniel
This is. I feel like we're at a dispensary. Like all these different. You can get lollipops. There's this other format, like, whoa, let's.

32:25
Katie Emerson
Go Mosh protein bars.

32:27
daniel
Yep.

32:27
Katie Emerson
I don't know if you guys have tried those in the middle of the day. I'll just reach behind me and grab a mosh bar and it's so good.

32:33
daniel
That's okay. So a lot of different products out there. That was a. Also a very good sales pitch for goalie. I think I definitely need to order that now and try it out and see if I can get through this ever expanding checklist that I have of my to do's for the day. Okay. So Kelly, you must have a lot of reflections on this discussion from this brand journey that you've been on. I wonder if you could just tell me a little bit more like back to how you guys decided even that you wanted to target some of these brain health functionality, make it like so forefront for your marketing and appeal to consumers. Can you tell me a little bit more about the backstory?

33:10
Kelley Bridenbaugh
Yeah, great question. So when we decided we wanted to launch an energy line, we didn't want just another energy drink. We want something that was science backed, that consumers could trust and that would also support mental performance. So we touched upon it a little bit. You have your physical energy, but then there's also mental energy. So that's actually I've switched from coffee in the morning to karma energy. Cause I'm like, yeah, coffee will give me my caffeine, but with karma, I'll also get the benefits from cognizant. I'll also get my vitamins for the day. And we found that, yeah, consumers are just looking for more from their functional food and beverage, you know, extra. They don't just want water, they want water with these different benefits.

33:51
Kelley Bridenbaugh
So yeah, when we decided to go with our Energy line, it just really made sense to work with a branded ingredient like Cognizant because they are clinically studied. They have the research to back it up. And it's been really great working with them. They're more than just an ingredient supplier for us. It's really a partnership. So we work on, you know, co branded initiatives and working on that marketing and that education piece which is mutually beneficial to both brands. So yeah, it's just made sense and then it's made sense ever since we started with them.

34:21
daniel
Katie, can you tell me a little bit more about that? Cause I know you guys do some of that co marketing stuff with some of the people who work with you. Can you tell me what that is like?

34:30
Katie Emerson
Yeah, here. No, I'm just kidding. This is a prime example.

34:34
daniel
You're part of it. It's happening right now.

34:36
Katie Emerson
Well, when this was brought up, were trying to think of what brand to bring on to represent and Maria tossed out some ideas. And then I was like, Kelly. Because when I first joined, I met Kelly at Supply Slide and we did an interview together and I was like, God, that partnership was good. We were vibing like that was awesome. Let's, let's bring Kelly back on. So this is a perfect example. Another one is I did a symposium for dietitians who are that write and do videos for media outlets. And were, as a dietitian myself, I'm like, what are they going to be more receptive to? An energy drink, A gummy a supplement? I was like a food.

35:11
Katie Emerson
So we brought the Mosh team on and so I brought Mosh out with me and we did a co presentation to everybody and it benefits both people because I think Mayo Clinic was like all excited about their initiative behind Alzheimer's and Maria Schreifer, like behind the brand. And then they were also excited about the brain health aspect and clinical studies from Cognizant. So we continue to do the co branding and it's probably one of my favorite things that we do because while it's fun talking about an individual ingredient to have a finished good and to have their mission statement align with our mission statement, it just makes it more fun and personable. So this is the perfect example.

35:47
daniel
That is awesome. Okay, so Kelly, I looked on your website. I'm just going to read this because I want to make sure I get this right. So it says, and this is like going to be just about how much do consumers know about this? So on your website it says elevate your mental performance with karma energy Water fortified with the patented nootropic Cognizant. This clinically tested form of citicoline, a naturally occurring nutrient in the brain, provides the essential nutrition your brain craves for optimal focus and cognitive health. And then you have this super cool video, actually, which I think is just from the Cognizant team, and it's on there, and it explains in a really fun way how Cognizant can support your brain's neurotransmitters. And, you know, it's like, for me, science is scary, and I did not find this scary.

36:33
daniel
I found it very interesting and fun to watch. So overall, like, how much do you think consumers understand what it is that, like, how your product works and all of these benefits behind it versus just like a cursory look like, yeah, that looks good, I'll have that.

36:48
Kaitlyn White
Yeah.

36:48
Kelley Bridenbaugh
I mean, I think it depends on the consumer because I think some are looking for that deeper level of education and understanding. And that's where, you know, we can only tell so much of a story on our label. So our website gives us that opportunity to expand and let those consumers who want the deeper dive, they can go to our site. And that's another reason why working with a branded ingredient like Cognizant is great, because while we're the beverage experts, they are the scientists, so they give us those nice explainer videos. They make sure that the language that we're using is clear and accurate and actually reflects the claims that we can make. So it's definitely that partnership again in action is figuring out how we can best explain it to the consumer.

37:30
daniel
Now.

37:30
Kelley Bridenbaugh
Yeah, some want to know more. I think others are just like, oh, it's a flavored water and don't even realize all the benefits. So we're always trying to figure out the best way to educate and meet the consumer where they are.

37:43
daniel
And you must get questions from them over email. Right. Like, people must be curious about this because it's just such an interesting product and delivery mechanism. What are the kind of questions that they typically send in to you most commonly?

37:56
Kelley Bridenbaugh
That'd be a great question for Taylor, our consumer relations. I think sometimes we get the. It just tasted like plain water. We say, oh, did it work? They missed the whole cap. So it was just plain water. We're like, okay, maybe that's on us. Even though, you know, we have push cap to infuse, we have instructions all over in general, I think a lot of questions come around, you know, how can we guarantee the claims that we make? And actually, your last Podcast episode about like label transparency. I love that one because that's something we pride ourselves on. And so it's really great for our consumer relations team when people are reaching out, being like, hey, am I actually getting, you know, all these vitamins or with our probiotic line, am I actually getting digestive health? How can you prove that?

38:44
Kelley Bridenbaugh
With our cap, it makes it easy for us and we do have third party studies as well to back that up. So I think working for a product that has science backed ingredients and we have, you know, unique delivery formats makes it easy for our consumer relations team to respond to those customers.

39:02
daniel
I think that's a really good point. I'm glad you brought up that previous episode, the one we just did with Lauren Handel a few weeks back, who. Yeah, just total pro on all this stuff. Really helpful listen for people. And Caitlin, I think that actually could be a good question for you in the radical science perspective. So, you know, I think typically brands are making their product and they understand the benefits they're going for. They understand, can read through details on the ingredients that they're using. Now in this kind of an instance, they might be wanting for the product that they're dreaming up to claim different things like whether it's focus or memory or mood. And typically they would consult a lawyer or regulatory consultant, someone like that, to look at that stuff.

39:44
daniel
But I wonder, Caitlin, if you have any thoughts about that or like tips for brands or things you think they should think about when they're actually looking to make sure they're on the right side when they make a claim like that. So Katie, maybe that is a good question actually back for you and Kiowa, which is okay, brands, when they get started, typically they're going to have something specific that they want to claim for their product or maybe some different options. Maybe they don't know exactly, but they want to read through the different ingredient specs and understand what they could possibly claim. They might be deciding between some different options or maybe their regulatory consultant or lawyer has told them there are a few things you could say whether it's, you know, supports focus or memory or mood.

40:23
daniel
How do you think they could be deciding between those different things and making sure that they can substantiate it and, you know, be on the right side just, you know, in the case that one of these lawyers comes after them, which can happen.

40:35
Katie Emerson
Yeah, I work with lawyers daily. Not my favorite part of the job, but it's very important. Label transparency, scientific transparency is really important. It's something that we pride ourselves on at Kiowa. And when I think about designing a study, obviously we're doing it not just for scientific exploration, but we want to be able to translate our results into a claim. So we need to make sure that the science is transferable, like you are able. Generalizable, I think, is the better term. So generalizability is being able to say, I tested it in males and females of a wide range and we used a validated tool making. If it's not a validated tool, you know you're going to have a really hard time substantiating that in front of a court of law, especially when it comes to a regulatory body like FTC and fda.

41:22
Katie Emerson
So validated tools are important. You want to be able to make sure that the endpoint that you're measuring is going to work in all demographics and age ranges. So that's why doing one study isn't always appropriate because you can't capture everything and everyone in one study. If you can, awesome, kudos to you. But that's really hard to do. So that's why doing repeatability and having validity behind the tests that you're using, the endpoints that you're measuring, that helps to build the totality of evidence around your substantiation for these claims. So then you can build out a dossier that says, we're looking at focus. We've done it in males, we've done it in females, we've done it in 13 to 18 year olds, 40 to 60 year olds, 90 year olds. We've done it on acute. We've done it for nine months.

42:05
Katie Emerson
Like you have to have that generalizability of the data to be able to apply those findings to a product label, if that makes sense.

42:14
daniel
Yeah, absolutely. So Kelly, then coming back to you on the karma water slide, let's say a new founder comes up to you and they're saying like, hey, I want to develop a product in this space. I really think brain health is important. And I just am having trouble figuring out even like what ingredients to use or what claims to make or how to communicate that to consumers. What would be some overall tips that you would have for them on how to do this? Right?

42:36
Kelley Bridenbaugh
I would say an overall tip would be find a branded ingredient. So we know how to market karma. And with this specific product line, because we're using Cognizant, they give us those tools, you know, they give us those buzzwords that do speak to the consumers. So mental acuity, focus, mental energy, they give us ways they'll sit down with our sales team so that they know how to talk about it at trade shows. Because unfortunately, I can't just put Katie in my pocket and let her come to all the shows with me and talk to explain Cogniz. So I would say if you are looking to include, you know, functional claims, functional ingredients, it's worth working with a branded ingredient because they are, you know, another tool to add to your toolkit, and they'll really help you. And it's a true partnership.

43:21
daniel
That makes sense to me. Like, when I had an energy product, for sure, the one of the first things I did is once we got the formulation, I looked at who's providing the energy source there, and, you know, go comb through their website, just looking at some of the different things that they tell you about the product and the story and the. The differentiators for their specific brand of the product and what it does. And a lot of that I'm thinking about how to weave back into our overall story, whether that's a story I'm telling to buyers to help them understand why our product is so good and clean and all that stuff, or even potentially, if it's stuff that I would then put kind of front of house, like, facing towards consumers as well.

44:02
daniel
But both of those ended up being really important and just, like, truly understanding your supply chain. But although I think the supplier probably would have been happy to get on a call with me, I don't think I was going to get access to all of their research and all of their scientists who. All of that firepower that you really want to the point where, yeah, you have the kind of generalizability or transfer ability or whatever of the science behind the actual ingredient that I can almost, like, claim as my own then as the brand. Because, yeah, we use that ingredient, so this is true for our brand as well. So I think that's a really good tip. I think that makes a lot of sense.

44:36
daniel
Obviously, everybody has to look at, you know, the formulation and the cost of everything and, you know, make a good decision. But that I can definitely see how that can make things a lot easier. Because I feel like if you go out and demo and you're a founder and you have a product and you're someone's trying your product, they might ask you about the 30, like, the 20th ingredient on your label and ask you, like, 20 questions about it, you're like, I'll be honest, I don't know the answer to that. I'd be happy to look into it and come back to you. But as A founder of a brand, like, I'm not the person who actually makes this. I have the overall dream and idea, but I did not hand grind each of these ingredients from scratch.

45:10
daniel
I don't actually, I'm not an expert on every single one of them. I hopefully know generally what's in the product and the pros and cons. But yeah, so I think, you know, when you can have partners who can really help you with that part and the education, it's really helpful as a founder. But, you know, yeah, we just. Different people have different skill sets too. You might have some founders that actually go very deep on that op side, on the science side. Even some founders who really do come from that scientific background and others who are much more, I would say, marketing forward or sales forward or, you know, a lot of different kinds of skill sets out there.

45:41
daniel
So that is very beautiful when you have partners who can really help you with that and the science teams who can also then like radical science, get in there and really take a close look at your finished product and test things like that for you. So I am going to wrap us up here, ladies, but this has just been such a cool conversation. You know, I think probably every brand out there would love to be in this kind of a situation where they have a really strong science backed story that's been tested by labs that they can, you know, really be very confident about. Not every brand can do that. Not every brand will have this kind of ingredient accessible to them for exact, for whatever it is they're trying to do out there outside of the brain health ingredient space or whatever.

46:24
daniel
But that is, it's a, I think, something that everybody can aspire to as well. So cool. As we wrap up here, I would love if maybe each of you could just give us any final words and also just, you know, if there's any way that people can follow along with you or your company, maybe you can give them the best way to do that. So I will start with you, Kelly, to wrap us up with Karma water.

46:46
Kelley Bridenbaugh
Yeah. So with Karma, you know, success isn't just about selling drinks. It's about building that consumer trust and that journey and that comes with using branded science backed ingredients and, you know, always delivering a product that tastes good and actually gives you those functional benefits because that's what the consumers want nowadays. At Karma, you know, we're always looking to elevate wellness and, you know, mental performance and in a way that consumers can trust. And we're always rolling out, you know, new, exciting flavors, some product lines so best way to follow along social is at drink karma and then drink karma water. And then our website is drinkkarma.com we're also, you know, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, you name it, we're on it. So give us a follow and you'll see. You know, we'll cross post with Katie and the Cognizant team as well.

47:35
daniel
I love it. All right, great. Thank you so much and congrats you guys on all of that success. Really seems like you're on a great journey. Okay, Caitlin, coming to you next for Radical Science. How can people follow along, learn more?

47:48
Kaitlyn White
Yeah, well, Radicle, we're moving into Gen 2. We are in a whole new phase of newly customizable protocols and new measurables or measures and wearables and biomarkers and digital biomarkers. So we're in a new phase which means that finding a way to stay.

48:03
Katie Emerson
I'm excited about that by the way. We have to talk.

48:06
Kaitlyn White
Yes. Yeah, it really is cool.

48:08
daniel
Okay, Caitlin, coming to you. How can people follow along with Radical Science and learn more?

48:13
Kaitlyn White
Yeah, well, you can find us radicalscience.com we're also pretty active on LinkedIn for the different updates we've got going on. Right now we're moving into Gen 2, which means we have more customizable protocols than ever. More measures, we're incorporating wearables and biomarkers, digital biomarkers. A lot of new stuff we're able to do. But radicalscience.com or LinkedIn are the best places to keep up with us.

48:36
daniel
Caitlin. I love that also just fun fact for everybody. I actually know the co founder and CEO of Radical Science. Just much more socially though because were friends in LA and ended up jamming together as musicians. So he's a multi talented guy. I don't know. He also has a TED Talk out there that you can check out. But he is a very solid guitarist and we've jammed and it's great.

48:59
Katie Emerson
That's cool.

49:00
daniel
Yes, we love multi talented people. Okay, Katie, coming to you. To wrap up from Kiowa. How can people learn more? Follow up with you guys, all the.

49:07
Katie Emerson
Good stuff, pretty much everything that Kelly and Caitlin just said. LinkedIn, websites, social media. Kiowa has its own website where you can learn about the mission and vision of being a Japanese company, especially our fermentation process. So that's really innovative and cool. And then if you wanted to go to the Cognizant website, it's just cognizant.com if you're looking for products where you can find Karma water and other like I think we have over 300 products now. You go to the Bicognizant tab and you can even sort of through, you know, if you want beverages versus chocolates or capsules. It's a very easy navigational tool. And then same thing at like Cetria, you can go to the Cetria Glutathione website as well.

49:44
daniel
All right, perfect. Thank you each so much. This was super interesting and I am very excited for all the brands to get to hear this. I think they will have a lot of follow up questions for each of you. So don't be surprised if your LinkedIn start blowing up. So. All right, thank you everybody. Everybody. All right everybody. Thank you so much for listening to our podcast. If you loved it, I would so appreciate it if you could leave us a review. You could do it right now. If you're an Apple podcast, you can scroll to the bottom of our Startup CPG Podcast page and click on Write a review. Leave your company name in there. I will try to read it out. If you're in Spotify, you can click on about and then the star rating icon.

50:23
daniel
If you are a service provider that would like to appear on the Startup CPG podcast, you can email us@partnershipstartupcpg.com lastly, if you found yourself grooving along to the music it is my band, you can visit our website and listen to more. It is superfantastics.com thank you everybody. See you next time.