The Startup CPG Podcast

Brooke Gil
You need to be able to tell your story and tell your customer what your product is at a glance. You really only have a customer's attention at a glance. And it's the same thing in fashion, retail. You need to look at, like, a table of clothing and know what that outfit looks like at a glance. So it's the same thing. We have a split second to. To entice someone, and then maybe they pick up the and read the back and then you have their attention for, like, whatever you have on the back.

00:38
Daniel Scharff
Welcome, everyone, to the startup CPG podcast. Today's episode comes with some extra special sauce because we've got Brooke Gill from Whole Foods Market, and she covers pastas, Pasta sauces, oils, vinegars. For me, these are some of the most interesting categories to watch right now because emerging brands are absolutely gobbling up market share from incumbents. On today's episode, we talk all about these trends within her categories, what it takes for a brand to succeed, how she looks at partnership with brands, and so much more. And I'm telling you are really in for a treat. With today's episode, I learned so much about how consumers shop these categories. Brooke is a true expert. All right, here we go. All right. Welcome, Brooke. I'm so excited to have you here.

01:24
Daniel Scharff
We met a long time ago back at the Whole Foods grocery run that we did in Austin, where I begged you to come on the podc just because I think your categories are so interesting, especially right now. So thank you so much for joining us. Would you mind starting us out with an intro, please?

01:38
Brooke Gil
Yeah, absolutely. So my first career was actually in fashion retail up in the Northwest. That's where I'm originally from. And then I moved to Texas about 10 years ago, and that means I've been with Whole Foods for just over nine years. So I started out on their regional team in the Southwest as a. See, I was called a purchasing assistant, and then I became the merchant for over three years, and then I went on maternity leave, had a baby in January 2020, and the pandemic hit. And then my first day back from maternity leave in April was on the meals team, what we called global at the time, and hit the ground running. I was over packaged beans and grains at the time, which was crazy time for during the pandemic.

02:19
Brooke Gil
But, yeah, I've been on my current role for just under four years, and I oversee pastas, pasta sauces, oils, vinegars. It's a great place to be. No complaints here.

02:30
Daniel Scharff
Well, I feel like we could do a whole nother Podcast about what it was like to be on those categories during COVID A rush of that, but we'll. I'll try to restrain myself for today. Okay, so those are a couple very meaty categories. I'm really excited to get into all of them. But first, also, I know you are quite the traveler, which I think is common with a lot of the Whole Foods folks that I've talked to. I think you've done maybe 80 countries already. Can you talk about some of your favorite cuisines from all of those travels? Yeah.

02:57
Brooke Gil
One that sticks out to me is, have you ever tried Cevapi or heard of it?

03:00
Daniel Scharff
No. What's Cevapi?

03:02
Brooke Gil
Cevapi is. It's like an eastern European. I first had it when I was in Bosnia. And it's basically this, like, flatbread, almost like a pita. And then inside are these, like, little sausages with no skin on them. And they serve it with the most decadent, creamy. It's like cream cheese, sour cream, and butter. Had a baby. I think it is actually like a mixture of those three things and then diced fresh onions and then this red, like, peppery sauce. And it's so good. And usually they serve it with fries, which makes it just even more naughty, but delicious.

03:31
Daniel Scharff
For anyone only listening to the audio, not watching the video, Brooke just did the chef's kiss on it. And so I think now we know if you ever leave Whole Foods to start your own brand, I think we know what you're going to do then. It's going to be a Cevapi brand, Brook's Cevapico. All right. But also, interestingly, I think you also have an olive oil sommelier certification. Is that right? Can you tell us a little bit about it? Even the, like, basics. How do you taste olive oil?

03:55
Brooke Gil
Totally. So, gosh, almost two years ago, I got my sommelier certification. And then actually, I don't know if I told you, but like, almost a month ago, I finished the master olive oil consultant certification through the same school in. In Valencia in Spain. But to get the sommelier, like, the base certification, I went for a. An intensive one week program to in Valencia, Spain. And it was incredible. I was with mostly people who were aspiring to produce olive oil, but it was really cool to hear their family stories and where they came from and why they wanted to produce olive oil.

04:27
Brooke Gil
But the course itself, I thought it was going to make me like this professional olive oil taster, but it was really more of, like, core foundational basics about olive oil and what makes good olive oil, what Makes bad olive oil and understanding the history of olive oil, which was super cool.

04:42
Daniel Scharff
Can you tell us any of that about, like, what makes good and bad olive oil?

04:45
Brooke Gil
Yeah, it's all. It has to do with the quality of the harvest, the timing. You've really got a short window between picking the olives and getting them through the mill. It's also has to do with the conditions of the olives when they're being picked, how old are they? So the earlier the harvest, you get a more bright and peppery finish olive oil. That's for people who know the flavor of olive oil. That's usually the preferred, but in the States, a lot of people prefer a softer. So you can either get a softer finish olive oil through more mature olives that have a lower polyphenol content, or you can get it through specific olive varietals like Arbekina.

05:19
Daniel Scharff
That's so interesting. It's really cool, though. I've done just like a day of olive oil tasting in Mendoza, Argentina, and was like, this is really cool. I have no idea what I'm tasting, but this is fun. I like this, and that's really cool. You got to do it in Valencia. I've been there for Las Fallas, which is this very cool festival they probably told you about that happens there in March, where it's just like they spend the whole year building these paper mache structures and then they burn them all. It's March, I think, and it's amazing. It's an incredible day.

05:50
Brooke Gil
I would love to go back for that. I. I have heard of that. I've seen pictures. But one thing I want to share about that course that was so cool is they taught us how to taste for defects and the different kinds of defects. And I think that was one of the most important things that I took away because I literally came home and were in the middle of an oil review and I had to, like, make some final decisions. And we did this massive oil cutting and I was really able to be like, okay, this one is really good quality. This one feels a bit rancid, or this one feels a little bit fusty or, you know, like, tastes. So it was cool to use that.

06:22
Daniel Scharff
That is very powerful. I really wonder what it's like to be a brand on the other side of that when my category manager is a sommelier for the olive oils. Like, your brand is rancid. Like, no, that sounds very terrifying.

06:35
Brooke Gil
It's a tough conversation.

06:36
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. I mean, hopefully it helps them in the long run to not have rancid olive oil. I'm just curious then. So, you know, there are a lot of new olive oil brands that have been really disruptive, have taken a lot of share in the industry. Some done some really cool stuff. From a taste profile perspective, are they that kind of like brighter peppery olive oil are talking about? Are they like similar taste profiles to the stuff that's been out there before?

07:00
Brooke Gil
I think what you're going to see with a lot of like the brands on shelf at Whole Foods right now, I should say a lot, but it's something I'm trying to do with more brands to help not only like, meet the customer where they're at and get the right oil for the right usage is to have not a high, low, but like something that is bright and peppery and something that's not bright and peppery, something that's a little bit smoother and fruitier so that you have that balance, you have those two options. But the key there is to accurately and like clearly label it. So a lot of the brands on shelf will say either what you should be doing with it and or the flavor and finish.

07:35
Daniel Scharff
Here's a dumb question from me, who is not really a chef.

07:39
Brooke Gil
I like dumb questions.

07:40
Daniel Scharff
Okay, let's say that Whole Foods Market shoppers are probably more educated about food than the general population. They obviously care about high quality food. How much do you think that they can really tell the difference between olive oils or even know what they're looking for or what the difference might be versus just kind of picking a trusted brand, something that they're used to or that they've seen other people buying? Like, I know you can differentiate that stuff. Personally, I probably can't unless someone explains it to me. I would be buying based off branding. How much do you think the shoppers in olive oil or across the categories, really personally know the difference between the products and how to use them differentially?

08:21
Brooke Gil
I think we're only just starting touch the surface on educating the customers on extra virgin olive oil. I think it's having a moment right now and hopefully like a long forever moment. But I'd say that our customers, they're humans, right? Like, there's some people that are label readers. There's some people that are like, romanced by the visual. Some people are looking for specific formats. Like, it's more about like the physical usage. But I would be curious to even know what percentage has actually tasted olive oil or when's the last time someone, like, tried the olive oil that's in their pantry. One of my favorite things to do during olive oil, like, education sessions and tastings is just to be like, okay, now you've tried really good olive oil, and you know what, like, rancid olive oil should taste like.

09:02
Brooke Gil
I challenge all of you to go home, look at the date on the bottle of oil in your pantry. Try to remember when you opened it and give it a little taste of its own. Like, don't cook with it. Like, literally just pour a teaspoon out, give it a try. And, like, see what you think now that you know what good olive oil tastes like. But also look to see if it's extra virgin, because a lot of people still don't understand the difference between extra virgin olive oil and refined olive oil. It's night and day. It's two different products.

09:28
Daniel Scharff
Well, that's so interesting, and I'm definitely going to try to recruit you to give all of us an olive oil tasting at some point. Maybe we'll figure it out during fancy foods or something where we can get everyone and you can show off your sommelier chops, and we can all learn how to taste rancid olive oil. Okay, so talking about trends, just your categories are so interesting right now. So much stuff happening. Yeah, Extra virgin olive oil, you know, adopted by the biohacking community. Just so much interesting stuff happening. And recently, The Whole Foods 2026 trends report came out also. And I know there are a couple trends just dead on for your category as well. Talking about, you know, the rise of vinegar as well, the kind of renaissance that we're seeing there. Can you just talk about the trends a little bit?

10:13
Brooke Gil
Yeah, absolutely. Well, vetivery vinegar is one of my favorite trends. Obviously, there's so many great health benefits from using vinegar in your everyday life. It's widely recognized as something that helps with the sugar, blood levels, regulation, and also helps with, like, building your microbiome and with digestion. So I think everyone should find a way to have vinegar in their life, like, in one way or another, if that's part of their salad dressing. Cool. For me, it's my mocktails. I love, like, I love a good mocktail with, like, we've got so many good ones on shelf right now. Any of the crushed fruit vinegars, the strawberries, my favorite from Costa Arena. We also have our really killer strawberry rose from Acid League. There's a new pineapple turmeric ACV from Bragg. All of those just bring so much flavor.

10:58
Brooke Gil
And you can put them on your salad, you can put them on your fruit, we can put them In a drink, like, any way that you can get a little touch of acid and also, like, some of that healthy microbiome. Why not?

11:07
Daniel Scharff
Okay. And then there's another trend, kitchen couture, which I thought was pretty interesting, right? Because it's all about almost like, front of house condiments and like, the kind of stuff now that people are really motivated to just put front and center on their kitchen. Looks beautiful, you know, sitting on your counter, which I think is. It's like hitting, you know, condiments and oils and all that stuff, as well as even like, Tupperware and stuff like that. That's just like. We're really proud of our kitchens now. Can you talk about that one a little bit?

11:33
Brooke Gil
Absolutely. I think we're all dazzled by something beautiful on shelf. And, like, I'm aware of that as a merchant and so, like, the kitchen mature, like, really speaks to me personally and as a merchant, so. So when I'm creating and merchandising a set, I'm very aware of the colors. Like, who are you by and where am I putting it? It's by price point, too, but it's also by format and, like, how you come across and, like, what the personal image is for someone who's buying it. So, like, I really think that a lot of us, we buy products that remind us of who we want to be or, like, kind of as an extension of who we are. And that's what we put into our kitchens for that, like, social media content so people can really see.

12:11
Brooke Gil
What does she have in her kitchen back there? Oh, that's pretty. She has good taste, you know, So I think having our products that reflect a little bit of who we want to be or who we are is important.

12:22
Daniel Scharff
Okay. So obviously, olive oil specifically, and some of the formats that we're seeing in packaging are pretty new to consumer and have really been disruptive and beautiful new bottles coming out. What percent do you think of your shoppers who buy the new brands? You know, whether it's like Graza or Brightland, learn about them online. It must be pretty high, right?

12:42
Brooke Gil
I would think so. Social media, I mean, I'm obviously targeted for everything, sustainability and then for, like, olive oil, of course. But I think a lot of people do follow their favorite brands online for education and like, to be the first to see their products come out. And I mean, a lot of these brands have created either like, aesthetically very pleasing imagery for all of their posts, or they're just fun and quirky. So, like, pick your favorite.

13:08
Daniel Scharff
I love it. And yeah, you probably are targeted actually, because I think a lot of brands figured out that you can target buyers the same way you would consumers. Want to make sure they're getting a couple extra impressions on your Instagram. Okay, cool. So just overall, I mean, yeah, we're seeing so much innovation. So many emerging brands have a lot of success, I mean, especially on your Whole Foods shelves, but then also making their way, you know, broader into the natural channel and I think also really having success now in conventional. We've talked about a couple trends and brands that are being really disruptive in your categories. Are there any other trends that you found really surprising or interesting stuff going on in your categories we might not be as aware of?

13:47
Brooke Gil
Yes, I mean, the tallow takeover trend for 2026, that one caught me by surprise. I mean, I knew about it before part of our trends, obviously, but literally overnight last year at some point, my unit sales were up triple digit in beef tallow, in animal fats in general. And then I narrowed it down. I'm like, what's driving this? And it was the beef tallow skew. And I have one. And so that caught me in my surprise. So I, you know, I mentioned it at work during, you know, a review for the week and one of the gals was like, oh yeah, it's a huge face trip. Like it's a skincare thing. People are using it to have that young glow. I'm like a tallow glow.

14:22
Brooke Gil
Anyhow, so yeah, it's bringing a totally new customer into the set who is literally buying it to put it on their face, which is totally cool with me. It's not my thing, but I've been using the same face lotion for like 20 years, so.

14:35
Daniel Scharff
Okay, so beef tallow for fellow dumb people out there is according to Google, the rendered fat of cattle used both for cooking and non culinary purposes, like making soap and candles. So what you're saying is basically there's this TikTok beauty trend where people are, it sounds like rubbing it on their faces as moisturizer. And then because of that usage, then people are also more interested in buying stuff that beef tallow is in for cooking also, or are they really just buying it straight up off the shelf just to use as moisturizer?

15:07
Brooke Gil
I'm going to say there's separate trends. There is a trend for like using more parts of the animal, so more sustainability from nose to tail. There's also the under, like perceived benefit of using like all of the parts of the animal, like when you're cooking as well. So that's one trend. The beauty trend really caught me by surprise just because I don't follow a lot of beauty trends. So when I heard that people are literally buying it, like the jars of it to use as facial care, I think it's great. Please keep doing it. I mean, I hope it's working for everybody.

15:36
Daniel Scharff
Okay, that's really interesting. Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was like, oh, so they get interested in it for one purpose, but then also like, yeah, I should eat some of this in my food more as well. Because also like, you know, beef tallow, fries and all this other stuff and chips and everything, all that kind of stuff has taken off as well. So I guess, okay, you're talking about a TikTok trend and how that influences stuff that really is important on shelf and how you would react to that kind of stuff. How do you look at some of these things that are happening in terms of, okay, is this just like a trend and this is happening right now and it's having a moment.

16:10
Daniel Scharff
Maybe I need to react and have a little bit more availability of skus on shelf or just, you know, have more stock for something like that versus things that you really believe will be stay. Will have staying power and be on shelf for a long time and really like a movement and you need to react in a more substantial way to stuff like that.

16:27
Brooke Gil
I don't know that there's a way to tell the difference. Honestly, some of the strangest trends hold on the longest. I will say that I follow my category strategy. I think when I approach my categories and when I'm thinking about ways I want to change the assortment, when I'm looking at innovation or when I'm partnering with a brand to come up with innovation to fill my white space or to meet one of these trends, first and foremost, I'm thinking, does this make sense for my category strategy or does my category strategy need to be changed? Do I need to judge it a little bit? So leading with organic is always part of. It's part of all my category strategies is how can I increase my organic percent to assortment. But also like going beyond the classics.

17:05
Brooke Gil
I think you're going to find that in all of my sets right now and in all of my category strategies. So, like, finding ways to bring interesting surprise and delights to the consumer that also really satisfy.

17:17
Daniel Scharff
I love it. And I really like every time someone says zhuzh on the podcast. So you get the bingo points for that one. Okay, so because you have all of these categories and so much interesting stuff is actually happening within them. I wonder if you could just give me a quick, like, just a summary of each category and what you're really seeing happening right now in each of those categories. Just one by one.

17:38
Brooke Gil
Okay, well, oils, beef tallow, olive oil, avocado oil, they're all driving growth. That is where the customer is voting with their dollars right now for pastas. I kind of love this one because there's a lot of things going on in this category. There's a lot of people stocking up and voting for my opening price point. But there's also a customer who is discovering and moving up in price point in trying more of the bronze cut, the slow dried pastas. And they're open to trying totally different cuts than they've tried before. And that's all part of my strategy, but I'm excited to say that it's working. And then for vinegars, we have our, you know, like continues to drive with apple cider vinegar. Our customers love their apple cider vinegar.

18:25
Brooke Gil
But also with the restructuring of the category just over a year ago, a year and five months ago is when we came up with our national core assortment and merchandising of white balsamic. Suddenly people understand what to use it for and they're buying it. White balsamic is seeing its day along with those crushed fruit vinegars. So I'm really excited about that. And then in pasta sauces, indulgence, that is like the name of the game right now. Everyone wants something super indulgent. My Alfredo selection, literally, I doubled or tripled it earlier this year. It was somewhere I just wasn't caught up with rest of market. And now I want to say I'm Whole Foods Market is leading in Alfredo. Don't quote me, but I pull the latest stats. But the assortment, I am really proud of it. And there's something for everybody in there.

19:09
Brooke Gil
And it's not just basic classic Alfredo with and a garlic Alfredo. I've got some really cool stuff in there. I don't know if you've tried any of the newer ones, but like Carbone, they have their Mac and cheese. So delicious.

19:21
Daniel Scharff
I know I'm holding up a Carbone. I almost brought out the Mac and cheese one because I recorded a podcast with Eric a few weeks back and I just sat there and ate it with a spoon. I'm like, oh, are you supposed to cook this? This is just good as hell. This with a spoon. It's so good. So just a quick question on the indulgence part or. Okay, so we know that there has been a lot of inflation in general in the system over the last couple years. Do you see an impact on how people are shopping your category? Let's say something like pasta sauce? Like, okay, maybe people tighten their belts, they don't eat out as much, but then maybe they're buying more premium pasta sauce because they want to have fancier meals at home.

19:58
Daniel Scharff
Like, do you see anything like that over the last couple years?

20:01
Brooke Gil
I think you're spot on. We have a very healthy business with our premium sauce category. Yeah, we're definitely selling a lot of premium sauce. More premium sauce than we ever have. The problem I'm seeing right now is every brand that comes to me that's new is premium. I'm like, I can't be all premium sauce. Like, there's got to be like, a really. Part of my strategy with all of my categories is to have a really balanced pricing ladder. I've got to keep a really healthy opening price point. And that can't just be private label all the time. Because everyone that you know that some people want branded, then how do I get that middle tier? That middle tier has been disappearing a bit over the last couple years.

20:35
Brooke Gil
So that was one of the things I focused on with my last reset back in January, was really reestablishing that middle tier price point, but still with some really delicious, incredible sauces.

20:47
Daniel Scharff
That's so interesting. Okay, so there have been a lot of brands coming on very strong. With you guys having a lot of success, do you see any commonalities between the brands? Like, for the ones that have done well and been successful? Yeah, I think a lot of them are premium brands. But anything you see, whether it's about their branding or their packaging or their execution or just something you really like about their teams or how they approach the market or how they support the business at Whole Foods, anything that you can look across be like, yeah, this is a winning recipe right now.

21:16
Brooke Gil
There's a few things I think supporting your program is number one. Promotions drive trial. They build momentum. They are key for any program success, like getting behind it and, like, driving that trial. Our customers love to try new things when they're on promo, and they also stock up when they're on promos. So I think that's a key part of the partnership. But then also when you think about, like, how do we keep our customers coming back to Whole Foods and continuing to grow these brands and drive their success on shelf, and it's really, truly through that innovation and typically when they innovate with us, it's like so that we're literally helping them, giving guidance on basically what do we need in our set? What is our customer going to vote for?

21:54
Brooke Gil
Most likely based on what we know about our customer and what's working today and the trends we're seeing in Italy specifically for my desk. So innovating together and then creating some sort of first to market exclusivity timeframe to really set Whole Foods as not just the market leader, but that like, destination for exploration and discovery within a brand, that's key. We want people to keep coming back to Whole Foods because, like, they know they're going to get the best of the best and they're going to have all the choices in the world.

22:21
Daniel Scharff
That is pretty interesting. I guess another question is you have some categories where maybe people end up having to buy the product more frequently. Like if it's a pasta sauce, maybe they're going through a jar of it pretty quickly. Like you could get through a lot of the jar and just like one meal. Right. Whereas something like olive oil maybe sits for longer. Right. Because you don't use as much of it depending on how often you cook. Do you feel like how brands support the business is impacted by that kind of purchase frequency by consumers?

22:50
Daniel Scharff
Like your demo can better or worse because I don't know, maybe somebody just has enough olive oil at home at that point, or maybe it's more effective because it really gives you a chance to interrupt their purchase frequency and then it can bring a lot of incremental business by doing more demos on an infrequent purchase thing. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, do you see any difference in what you like?

23:08
Brooke Gil
No.

23:08
Daniel Scharff
I need you to promote more or less because of the frequency of purchase or basket occurrence of that product.

23:13
Brooke Gil
I think about vinegars, they last forever. And there are certain, like, types of vinegars that people will forget they have in their pantry. And so they'll sit. So we have to remind them of ways to use that product to get through it by telling them on the bottle what to use it for. But I think with olive oils, one, you should not be buying anything that when you open it's going to sit in your pantry for more than two months. Because, Daniel, that is what makes a rancid olive oil in your pantry. You really need to get through it within about 2, 3 months maximum. Really, Truly. Otherwise you should be smelling your bottle at home. Smaller bottles of olive oil, I think are actually really important. And I think our Customer likes the price per ounce.

23:53
Brooke Gil
But I'm questioning like how much are they really getting through? Like you know, a two person, three person family, maybe they don't go for the full liter of olive oil. I think the 16.9 ounce would be plenty. And why not get two have one in backstock for when that one. Because they have a two year shelf life.

24:09
Daniel Scharff
That makes a lot of sense that I'm sitting here in front of you with this nice little three, four ounce bottle of olive oil that I think would be airplane friendly and that would be about a two or three month supply for me. Okay. So I wonder if you could give a little bit of specifics for your expectations for brands. I know it's going to be really different because yeah people, the purchase frequency is going to be really different for these categories. But what do you tell brands who just are getting on shelf with you across different categories? Some benchmarks that you want to see, you know, whether it's velocity or just, you know, growth the business over time. What kind of info can we share with people?

24:42
Brooke Gil
Absolutely. So I'm always going to provide benchmarks to each brand based on category. What part of the category are they playing in? Who would they benchmarked against? They're never going to benchmarked against my like a key core supplier that's nationally, you know, placed. I try to be really reasonable but I also want to, you know, encourage them to. I don't want to set the bar too low so I give like a six month because I want to be reasonable. I think a lot of people like want to look at their product and look at their performance in the first like two months. And I'm like, no, give yourself a minute. Let it like sit for three to six months and then let's see how you're doing.

25:18
Brooke Gil
And in those three to six months, make sure that you've done some demos, make sure you've done at least a couple of promos because that's when you're going to see how you're going to perform. And that at the year mark this is where I think you should be. And things change like, you know, depending on what comes into the category that can impact how another brand performs. So these are not hard and fast. Like you must meet this deadline or else, you know, like there's, it's not like that. It's like, hey, this is where we'd like to see you in six months. Here's where I think we should be at it in a year. If we don't get there. Let's look at what kind of, like, support you're doing for the program and then let's keep going.

25:51
Daniel Scharff
It's. It's great to hear how chill you are about it and how relaxed. Because on the brand side, those are like the most anxiety inducing three to six months of our life. Like, am I going to get. Am I going to do well? Am I going to get to stay? Because, you know, that's the dream for so many brands, is to get to work with you guys. So that's their big race and hopefully they take it very seriously and, you know, can do really well in those six months when you look at it at the end of it. But I mean, that's really very reassuring to hear how, like, you're pretty understanding about it.

26:20
Brooke Gil
I want to say one thing though, about that is after a year of being on the shelf, if you're selling less than a unit per store per week, almost in any category, and you're putting a lot of money into supporting the program and trying to drive, that's when you have to sit back and say, like, is this working? Like, if you're not selling any product and you're supporting it in Whole Foods, isn't selling out any product, what needs to change? So I think that there is, like, you have to have some degree of performance behind you after a year to validate that this is the right thing to keep going.

26:50
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. Or it's not a good partnership at that point, probably for both sides.

26:53
Brooke Gil
For either one.

26:54
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. Okay. And then another thing I wanted to ask you about is how you balance national, regional, local brands. Right. Because they all play a really important part in Whole Foods. And you guys do a really wonderful job, especially supporting local brands in the stores. Incredible signage. And I know the team members really get behind brands that they love locally as well. But how do you figure all of that out with your planograms and the kind of support you throw behind the different brands?

27:21
Brooke Gil
Well, I'm sure you realize this, but we have a very robust and capable forager and emerging brands team. They're like the rock behind all of our local supplier program, just in general. And I really rely on them to, like, suss out what are the brands that are coming to them, that are coming to me. Do they make sense locally? Is that customer excited about this brand? Do they know who they are? Does this meet a specific need for that customer of that region? When you think about regionality for my categories, there's very specific ones where there it's very strong. So you think about like Northeast, here's a hard and fast number to put behind it. So our stores there have an average of 12ft of pasta sauces. That's 12ft top to bottom pasta sauce.

28:04
Brooke Gil
And then you go to any other region, the average is eight, maybe six. But we can, you know, like eight is the average size. So that's four extra feet of pasta sauce that customer has been voting on historically, like they set those stores up. So like Northeast, I have a plethora of space for local and regional brands that speak to that customer. And we have a lot of big brands that are out of New York City in that area. So you think like Carbone and Rao's and several others, Michaels of Brooklyn. And they all have extended assortments there to speak to that customer.

28:39
Daniel Scharff
That is really interesting. And yes, I love your forager team. Just some of my favorite people out there and I think probably the one job everybody in our industry agrees that they would like to have. It just seems like so much fun. And all of them really, I think gets so much joy out of just being able to personally interact with and help all of the brands. Probably a lot of people know this, but we've gotten to do tons of events with your forager team, the local and emerging brands team all over the country. We just did one in Boston the other week with John Lawson. There are a hundred brands there that got to talk to him at that event. And we also had Mabel from the baking team and it was just incredibly special.

29:19
Daniel Scharff
We've now been able to do those local events like I was in North Carolina with Dustin Kennedy a couple weeks back and everyone there got to meet him. We had a sold out event in Asheville, North Carolina. Everyone was just overjoyed to get some time with him. And we had Margie in Chicago as well. And we've got Patrick coming to our SoCal grocery run in just two days time actually. And yeah, Jordan Bray we got in Austin at a big event. It's so much fun, I think just they're all really wonderful people who just approach brands with just so much excitement and they're really eager to help them, even if it might not be the right time for them.

29:56
Daniel Scharff
For Whole Foods, they love just looking at the packaging and giving feedback and ideas, but also just hearing their perspective on brands is really interesting too. Especially like I walked around with Jordan Bray and just heard him giving his thoughts about the brands and he has a culinary background. Just the way he tastes stuff is so interesting to hear.

30:13
Brooke Gil
He and I Go way back to Southwest. He was a purchasing assistant at the same time I was.

30:17
Daniel Scharff
Oh, cool. It was so much fun just to hear how he thinks about it, which is really different from how some of the other foragers think about it too. But yeah, what an awesome team. Okay, so speaking of, you know, feedback and things like packaging, I wonder if you do have any insights just specifically on product packaging. I think these are some of these categories where people would just really say especially something like olive oil. Like, packaging is so important in that category to stand out, like we've talked about. Especially if it's one where consumers don't have as much education and wouldn't know as immediately and instinctively if they like the same way that they would with just a beverage or something like that. So do you have any packaging insights for the brands?

30:57
Brooke Gil
I do. Something I like, the way I like to describe it is you need to be able to tell your story and tell your customer what your product is at a glance. You really only have a customer's attention at a glance. And it's the same thing in fashion retail. You need to look at like a table of clothing and know what that outfit looks like at a glance. So it's the same thing. We have a split second to entice someone and then maybe they pick up the and read the back and then you have their attention for like whatever you have on the back. So I think on the front, especially in olive oil specifically, like I said, flavor and finish is key. Saying what kind of olives are in it, that's really important, especially for a more premium product and the usage.

31:36
Brooke Gil
So if you can be like pretty direct, I mean, you've got cooking and salad oil with Breitland, or you've got sizzle and drizzle, or you've got like everyday and premium. With some brands, like just being very clear about what the usages are. And sometimes you can do whatever you want with it. Absolutely. But, like, having some direction helps. Pasta sauces, same thing. Also having a clear branding. I have some brands who I have to like, beg them. I'm like, please make your brand name bigger on this sauce or on this label. No one knows who you are because you don't say it. And like, I love what your product is, I love that you're saying what it is. But like, you need to have a brand presence because people are going to be loyal to your brand, not to this one type of product.

32:16
Brooke Gil
Does that make sense?

32:17
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, absolutely. Especially if it's not some totally kind of unique packaging. That people could just associate with your brand, which people accomplish, and I think a lot of different ways. So that makes a lot of sense. I really just like, clarity of brand. Like, stuff that's easy to understand that, you know, you don't need all of the different stamps all over the thing to read really carefully to understand what's going on.

32:37
Brooke Gil
Keep it simple. If it's like a menagerie of things to look at, they're never going to know what to look at, and they're just going to keep going. Yep.

32:44
Daniel Scharff
So another question I wanted to ask you is around how you work with brands on forecast. And obviously, like, everybody wants to work with you guys and never short you and get big distribution with you and be able to supply all that product and be in your good graces always. But for something like olive oil, I know it can be a little challenging. Right. Because you have the harvest that happens at a specific time of the year. And then if there is this really crazy demand spike that might be harder for them to react to, if the business hopefully goes really well versus something like, let's say, pasta sauce, where they can probably be a little bit more reactive and, you know, work with their manufacturing partners to churn out more for an increased store count, stuff like that.

33:25
Daniel Scharff
Has it been really pretty seamless to work with the brands and getting the inventory as demand grows in particular brands in these categories, or is that ever a challenge? Do you feel like you're on the same page with the brands when that happens?

33:38
Brooke Gil
I haven't struggled too much. I think it was like when you're launching a very small local brand, like Fat Gold in Northern California. I am obsessed with this brand. I love how simple the packaging is, and I love how, like, clear everything is. It's like, if you're looking for a great label, it's one of my favorites. But anyhow, so she has case pack 12. And I knew, like, okay, you're gonna be in these 25 stores. Here's I think, how many units per store per week we can do. She's like, I think we can support 25 stores and no more that year. So, like, just really having a clear understanding of, like, what are their production quantities, especially with the smaller brands that we're just launching with the larger brands.

34:15
Brooke Gil
The question more is like, hey, if you run up against inventory issues and supply issues, one, I need clear communication. Two, I need to know before it happens. Like, I don't want to know the day that you're running out and that your service level is going to like drop. So let's just stop communication and finding your way around it. And with promotions, we have an inventory planning team that supports us and they're incredible. The work that they do is so valuable to keeping us in stock and helping drive sales for the brands.

34:42
Daniel Scharff
And what would you do in that kind of situation? Unfortunately it can happen. Let's say a brand is like, hey, I am going to have a one or two month inventory issue for whatever reason. If they give you that heads up, which they should do, what can you do to try to plug the gap? Obviously the real estate on your shelves is so valuable. You have so much traffic in the stores. Would you do anything reactively to. I know it's tough to like act that quickly. I mean it's so hard to change things on shelves in so many stores. Is there anything you would actually do or you just want to know and make sure you have enough of the other products on shelf? Because demand might switch around a little bit.

35:16
Brooke Gil
Totally. So it depends on the level of the brand and how much they're driving every week. So we had an unfortunate circumstance where a brand, the owner passed away and they did not have inventory planned and it was a family business so they were still running but they realized they weren't going to have any product. Well, it was a fairly big chunk of business. So I said, okay, well I'm going to forecast these other brands up. I'm going to work with you guys. Please keep me updated on where you're at with getting inventory back in line. Just keep the communication open every couple of weeks. I need to know where you're at and like if there's a change in dates. So I did forecast product. I told stores, please fill in these holes for this time being. This product will come back.

35:54
Brooke Gil
But if I've got like a product who has like maybe one or two SKUs, fairly small volume, not a key player, then I'll say, okay, hey, do you have any promotions coming up? Let me look. Okay, we need to cancel those because we don't want to drive demand when you there's limited supply and then hey, okay, so it's going to be two months. We have a long term out of stock program that like if product's going to be out of stock specifically with you and the five, then we've got to wait to identify it in the system. The stores take it off the shelf temporarily once they sell out and then we bring it back. As soon as unify says that there is inventory again, we flip the VIN in our system and we start ordering it again and we allocate product.

36:33
Brooke Gil
So that's a new process as of about five years ago that I helped create. And it's like golden because things used to just fall off the shelf when they went out of stock, and now that's not the case. We have a process around it that's so interesting.

36:46
Daniel Scharff
And I hope everybody who just heard that really appreciates the level of insight there, because I think anyone who's been on the brand side has been in that situation where we have to give some news that we don't really want to give and we're not sure how, what you're going to do with that information. So that's incredibly interesting to hear. Thank you. So just as we come kind of towards the end here, I have a couple more questions I would really love to ask you. So I know that you guys go really deep on quality standards. The Whole Foods kind of banned list of ingredients is probably the thing that brands pay the most attention to in the industry. And I wondered if you could talk about the new standard for standalone oils.

37:24
Brooke Gil
Absolutely. It's been unofficially a standard for years, since before I even came into the role. We don't allow any chemical solvents in the extraction of oils. That includes animal fats. I learned this year because apparently there is a use of chemical solvents in that, and that's really it. Everything has to be expeller, pressed, mechanically taken out. And I will say that's not industry standard. A lot of refined olive oils are produced and extracted using chemical solvents. It's just not something Whole Foods has ever stood for as part of our holistic wellness. And basically, I'm taking what's always been unsaid and saying it and putting a stamp and putting it out there for everybody. But yeah, I currently don't have any on shelf that we're aware of that were extracted with chemicals.

38:05
Daniel Scharff
So. Cool. And then I also, I have to just ask about the whole seed oils thing. It seemed like, you know, I hear a lot of different perspectives on this from like, yeah, there's a lot of noise about it, but we're not really seeing it reflected so much in people's actual virtuous behavior right now. How are you thinking about it or what are you paying attention to?

38:23
Brooke Gil
I just want to make sure that we're meeting our customers needs that we're meeting where they're at. So if they're switching from seed oil to avocado oil, I want to be in stock in avocado oil. If they're still buying their canola or their sunflower seed, I'm going to have it. I need to meet all the customer needs. Maybe my forecasts change based on growth and maybe my assortment gets tweaked a little bit. But I will always cover all the need bases unless there's a safety concern.

38:47
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so one question as we wrap up here is I wonder if you could tell me what is a day in the life like for you, Brooke? How much of it is just trying all the new oils that are coming in and sent across your desk versus working with some of your longer history national brands, versus taking calls with emerging brands, versus, you know, working with your team on analytics and fighting for more feet of space for the pasta sauce in other regions. Can you just take me through a little bit of it?

39:19
Brooke Gil
Yeah. So every week, every Monday I spend the morning pulling reports just to see how things are going and I'm well enough like solidified in my desk and my understanding and appreciation of my brands and what roles they play and that I don't have a lot of surprises on a week to week basis. And when I do I'm like, oh, something to look at here. But I'm always looking at, you know, year over year net sales, year over year unit sales, looking at year over year profitability, looking at you over your average price point on shelf and looking to see how promos are performing and if they're performing a forecast. So that's kind of like my weekly grounding of the business. And then I mean I get a lot of emails I will share with you.

39:58
Brooke Gil
You know, I think a lot of people like brands, they find me before I find them. I do get out and I cop shop, I go to food shop. I love comp shopping when I get into other regions because they're places I've never been there's and I discover new products that maybe haven't come to me yet. One of my favorites was I was up in Norcal visiting a producer of some oils and it was an incredible trip and on top of it I went to one of their small co ops and discovered Damya olive oil and that's the Tunisian woman owned woman founded woman produced olive oil and it's incredible and it's right in line with everything I'm going after in that category. So yeah, you never know who you're going to discover when you're out and about in a small boutique retailer.

40:35
Brooke Gil
But I do get a lot of emails. So I spend a lot of time in meetings and in emails.

40:39
Daniel Scharff
I mean, I know you have a team that you work with as well. Can you talk a little bit about what are the different roles and what do people work on and how do you all work together?

40:47
Brooke Gil
Sure. So, like, there's a lot of merchants. All the merchants have, you know, between one and up to five, I think, categories, depending on how big the categories are and how intense they are. We have assistant category merchants who help us answer questions for suppliers, help us with, like, specific tasks around data reporting, that kind of stuff. We have our team leaders who we check in with. I talk to my team leader probably at least once a week. I'm like, hey, gut check. Something I'm thinking about. It's kind of a big move. What do you think? I'm also a promo captain. I don't know if anyone's really aware of captain ships, but we've got captain ships among the merchants, and it just helps us become bigger, like, have a more of a leadership position within the group and gives us more, like, specialized information.

41:31
Daniel Scharff
Sorry, what's a promo captainship? What does that mean exactly?

41:35
Brooke Gil
So I basically have a group of eight merchants who I help kind of guide and mentor, and we plan our promotions together on a quarterly basis, and then I help manage. And basically we look at analytics. We look at, like, what's driving why do we want to run this display? What's it going to do? How do we make it better? What does. Does that discounting make sense for that program? What kind of marketing can we put behind it that will really amplify and drive sales? So it's really just like someone who advocates for the group and makes sure that we're all selling as much product as we can on promo and really making our events work for our suppliers.

42:10
Daniel Scharff
That's cool. What's the best promo you ever saw?

42:14
Brooke Gil
I can't pick. That's like picking between children. But I will say the Mediterranean event that we've had the last couple of years in March is such a heyday. It's so beautiful on shelf. There's so many beautiful products. The aisle is lit up with yellow tags, and there's so much great product to choose between, so.

42:29
Daniel Scharff
All right. Well, Brooke, I know when everybody hears this podcast, they're going to be hoping for ways to meet you at shows throughout the year. I wonder if you could just quickly highlight a few shows that you expect you'll be at over the course of the year where potentially people could try to catch you sure?

42:44
Brooke Gil
I anticipate being at the winter fancy food show in San Diego. I more than likely will be at the New York fancy food show for summer, and I'm really hoping to go to Tutto Foods in Milan in May. So those will be the three shows I go to.

42:57
Daniel Scharff
Incredible. Okay, Brooke, I really want to thank you. This has been a super interesting discussion for me as category novice. Just to understand a little bit more about what's going on and how you do your work. And I'm sure you'll get a lot of LinkedIn requests after this one, so be prepared for that. I really want to thank you and just your whole team, honestly. It just has been one of the most supportive teams, I think, for brands in our community and the amount of time that you as the category managers and all of the foragers have really spent with all of the early brands, helping them out, giving them just a lot of your energy and time. So I really thank you for all of that and for being on the podcast today.

43:36
Brooke Gil
Thanks for including me. This is a very cool thing that you do, so thank you.

43:38
Daniel Scharff
Thank you. You all right? Bye, everybody. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to our podcast. If you loved it, I would so appreciate it if you could leave us a review. You could do it right now. If you're an Apple podcast, you can scroll to the bottom of our Startup CPG podcast page and click on Write a review. Leave your company name in there. I will try to read it out. If you're in Spotify, you can click on about and then the star rating icon. If you are a service provider that would like to appear on the Startup CPG podcast, you can email us at partnershipstartupcpg.com lastly, if you found yourself grooving along to the music, it is my band. You can visit our website and listen to more. It is superfantastics.com thank you everybody. See you next time.

44:30
Brooke Gil
Sam.