The Startup CPG Podcast

Megan Westgate
People who want natural food don't want GMOs. That's just inherent. So that was the reality. So then what we saw is there was a real risk for natural products companies if they weren't taking steps to make sure that their products were non gmo. Then there was a gap between consumer expectation and the reality of their product. And the more UPF someone eats, the higher risk they'll have for these illnesses. And on the bright side, when someone reduces their UPF consumption even a little bit, it can have positive impacts on, for example, their risk of diabetes. And so really what we're looking at is ultra processed food is now the majority of the food that people are eating in packages. But it is totally possible to make industrially produced food that is not ultra processed.

00:58
Megan Westgate
And that's what we're seeing leadership from now in the natural products industry with this new program.

01:06
Daniel Scharff
Hello and welcome to the startup CPG podcast. If you're listening, you probably are one of the many people trying to make our food and CPG ecosystem better. One of the big topics of conversation these days is around ultra processed foods. We're seeing heightened awareness around what's in our food and it's even starting to reach a lot of consumers who probably did not pay as close attention to it in the past. So today we are breaking down a new certification called the Non UPF Verified program. It's from the same trusted organization that is behind Non GMO Project Verified. And I'm a little starstruck because today's guest is none other than the founder and CEO Megan Westgate. She is going to share everything about this new Non UPF certification. Why it's here, how it works, what can it mean for brands, consumers, buyers and this world.

01:52
Daniel Scharff
This basically everything that you need to know. I also think you're really going to enjoy hearing the ins and outs of what does it take to grow a certification into something recognized by consumers, brands and retailers everywhere? All right, here we go. All right, Megan, welcome to the show. Could you do a quick intro for us, please?

02:17
Megan Westgate
Sure. Hi, Daniel. I'm Megan Westgate. I'm the founder and CEO of the Non GMO Project and now Non UPF Verified and also the Food Integrity Collective. So I've been working on Food Integrity for almost two decades. Started working on the Non GMO project back in 2006. So yeah, it has been two decades now. That's how that math works out. And I was, I started out, I was working at a food co op in Tucson, Arizona and shoppers were coming in asking how to avoid GMOs, and there was no system for doing that. And that's really where it all started.

02:53
Daniel Scharff
So I know we're going to talk a lot today about the new non UPF Verified program, but I have to ask, because non GMO project Verified is so ubiquitous in this industry, it's talked about so much. It's everywhere. What is it like to actually start something like that from the ground up now? You're going to have, like, people know you, they know the seal already. I feel like it'll be a lot easier to do it. But I mean, 2006, like, what was it like to actually try to start that from scratch?

03:19
Megan Westgate
Yeah. Well, let me just admit that I had no anticipation that it would ever become as big as it is now. When I started working on this, it was. And many founders can relate to this. It was unpaid work. I didn't even have a desk. I was working on a laptop on, like, a coffee table on my bedroom floor. And eventually I worked up to having a desk. And the project got going really fast, actually. And I remember times where I'd be answering the phone and, like, the impression was that it was a much bigger thing than it was. Like, it seemed like it wasn't just, like, one woman, her, like, newly elevated desk in her bedroom. So people would call and be like, can I have the accounting department? And it would be like, sure, just a minute. I'm like, yes.

04:09
Megan Westgate
No, I don't think I ever actually fully pretended, but, you know, it was the way that I experienced it is like it was something that wanted to happen. And I did work my ass off. And I am a smart and capable human. But I think that there is something really important about, like, you can have a great idea and you can work really hard on it, but there's this other piece of magic of, like, is this something that, like, wants to come into being that the world is ready for? And it feels like that was really there for non GMO projects.

04:40
Daniel Scharff
I like it. I've heard other people talk about that in different ways, whether it's right place, right time, or just when the trend hits and you're ready there with the right solution at the right time. But I really like how you say it. And I also feel like it sounds like you're even scrappier than Bezos, because. Right. He would just go to get the plank for a desk from Home Depot or whatever. But you didn't even have the desk, so you went on that front.

05:04
Megan Westgate
I didn't even have A desk. But I did have amazing support also. I just want to acknowledge that the natural products industry, at the time that the project started, many of the founders were still in the industry and had a presence and they got behind this. So that was another huge part of its success. And just I think, really a testament to the power of community, which I know is a big focus for you all too, is like the way that when we support each other's efforts and are working toward a common aim, a lot more becomes possible than just working on our own.

05:37
Daniel Scharff
And I imagine it must have evolved a lot now. I know, okay, a certification like this, there's a process. You guys know a lot about it. It's going to be a really conscientious approach to looking through all the ingredients. And there are obviously fees involved. And then you get that stamp that you're looking for at the end if you pass through all of the due diligence around it. In the early days, was it a pretty similar process or have you really gotten much sharper and deeper throughout the years of what you really want to make sure the standard is representing?

06:10
Megan Westgate
Our standard for Non GMO Project was really rigorous right from the beginning. And the structure was similar in certain ways in that. So we're a nonprofit organization. We set the standards and we work with outside technical administrators who actually do the certification, the document review, oversee the inspections, oversee the non GMO testing. When we started Non GMO Project, we had one technical administrator and we now have four. So that's part of the difference is just there's a lot more capacity in terms of that product evaluation arm. And yeah, we now have a more rigorous system in place for the oversight of the technical administrators, for the surveillance testing we do for the quality control auditing to make sure that the way the TAs are interpreting and applying our standard is consistent with what we.

07:03
Megan Westgate
So it's certainly more sophisticated, but it was rigorous right from the beginning. And it was pretty audacious to just have one employee and a technical administrator, which basically had like one or two people working at another organization and then me trying to do this. And then it grew very quickly and we had to scale in a hurry, which we successfully did, but it was a hustle.

07:27
Daniel Scharff
It's so interesting, and congrats to you for all of the success. I mean, you're one of the real pioneers who did that. And I can totally relate to that kind of a journey of just. You just start doing it and, you know, then it turns out you're in a good place. I'm sure a lot of people listening to this will relate to that as well. So what do you think was really the key to all of that adoption though? Because it's just so well accepted now. There are even some retailers who really reference it all the time. It's well recognized by consumers. And obviously this is a lead into how we're going to be talking about the new non UPF certified program as well. But yeah, what do you think was really so key to just building that mass so that consumers recognize it?

08:08
Daniel Scharff
Retailers are looking for it. Brands know that if they get it's going to make a difference.

08:12
Megan Westgate
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think it's a really foundational consideration in a space where natural isn't defined. Right. And like what makes a food healthy or natural. And with that lack of definition, I do think that's a big part of the non GMO project success because there's an obviousness to like, well, certainly we know that if it's gmo, that's not natural, you know, so it's kind of this foundational definition for natural. It's certainly not comprehensive, but it is. It's a line in the sand that I think was just felt really obvious to a lot of people. And from when we started, although a lot of people didn't know about GMOs, when we launched the project, within a couple of years were starting to see different ballot initiatives on different states proposing mandatory labeling of GMOs.

09:03
Megan Westgate
And that raised a lot of consumer awareness about the topic. And so that timing was really important too, because then what you had is as more people were learning about GMOs, it's just like very clear. People who want natural food don't want GMOs. That's just inherent. So that was the reality. So then what we saw is there was a real risk for natural products companies if they weren't taking steps to make sure that their products were non gmo, then there was a gap between consumer expectation and the reality of their product. And I think the initial adoption was driven by leaders in the industry who were talking about things like the kind of food legacy they wanted to leave for their grandchildren. They were very mission forward.

09:47
Megan Westgate
But the mass adoption that we've seen is I think more because of like this line in the sand of we need to make sure that we're meeting our customers baseline expectations. They don't want GMOs in a natural product.

10:00
Daniel Scharff
Okay, I got it. So Megan, you kind of seem like the type of person who feels almost compelled to launch these kind of things. So what is in the world right now or what is in the air that makes you feel like that magical moment now is here where you need to launch the non UPF Verified program the same way that you felt like it was the right time, right place to do it with non gmo?

10:23
Megan Westgate
Yeah. Well, we are obviously at a really critical time for life on Earth. Like the polycrisis evidence of it is everywhere. Right. And so I have been thinking a lot for years about what is our human responsibility in relationship to that. And one thing that I see is that humans, we really have a role on planet Earth as a keystone species. Our choices have an outsized impact on all other life. It's just the reality of the effect we have. And so when we are not thinking clearly, when we are not feeling well, the choices that we make that affect all, not just ourselves and our families and our communities, but all living things are negative. And we're seeing the evidence of that everywhere. So for me, there's again a very foundational intervention around.

11:19
Megan Westgate
What we're seeing with ultra processed foods is they are driving a global health crisis. They are eroding human well being in ways that nothing else ever has. And it's not just heart disease and obesity and type 2 diabetes. It's also our cognitive function and our emotional well being. We are increasingly eating food that isn't food. It's processed edible substances that our bodies don't recognize, don't know how to metabolize, don't know how to turn into good energy for our bodies and our minds. And I believe that is driving dysfunction in humans. That is a problem for life on Earth. So for me it's, it is again a very mission driven thing that we need to make sure that more packaged food is actually food. I don't think we're going to see a change in the fact that we rely on processed packaged food.

12:18
Megan Westgate
The majority of our calories come from processed packaged food. So I think it's imperative that we figure out, and many brands have already demonstrated that it's possible. We need to figure out how to make more of that packaged food that actually nourishes life. And so I believe it's like a human responsibility and that the food industry, and especially the natural products industry has this amazingly powerful role that we can play in that.

12:43
Daniel Scharff
That's very inspirational. I really like how you talk about that. And it also just really occurred to me in the moment that I think you're one of those systemic thinkers, which I'm not and I've always wanted to be. I'm really jealous of the people who can just actually zoom out and see that broader picture and understand why then it's going to relate to certain solutions. So that's really interesting and helpful for you to explain it that way. So just then drilling down into ultra processed foods, first, would you mind just giving us a layman's explanation of what is it? What are ultra processed foods?

13:18
Megan Westgate
So I mean, this is a harder question than you might realize, and this is the whole reason that we created the non UPF verified standard is because if you ask 10 different people that you'll probably get 10 different answers. The term was originally coined by University Sao Paulo, Brazil researchers who had seen that as more packaged food was starting to come into Brazil, they were starting to see epidemic of diseases that hadn't existed in that population before. So this is back in 2009, they were doing epidemiological research to see what were shoppers buying and how did that correlate with their health outcomes. And they coined this term ultra processed. But for the purposes of that kind of research, the groupings that made sense and the definitions that made sense were very broad. And basically under that terminology, anything industrially produced is ultra processed.

14:12
Megan Westgate
And that's not a helpful definition. In 2026 when we look at the reality that we are mostly getting our calories and our nutrients from industrially produced packaged food. And the reality is there is a huge range of quality in that in terms of how processed it is. So at the other end of the spectrum, you'll see people who define it like, I think there's some legislation in Arizona right now with regard to school lunches where they define ultra processed food as simply some anything that has any of, I think 11 different ingredients. So you think of things like red 40, you know, like the most objectionable, highly refined hallmark ingredients of upf. So there's a huge span.

14:56
Megan Westgate
And with non UPF verified, we aim to find a middle ground where we're looking at, yes, there is a list of prohibited substances that aren't allowed, but we're also looking at the processing itself. We have a requirement that at least 70% of a verified product has to be minimally processed. And the point of that is to make sure that it really has the whole food matrix still intact, that the body will recognize and be able to metabolize it as food with some of the nutrients still there. And then we also have restrictions around things like the amount of refined added sugar and gums and texturizers. And, you know, we could go into any of those details, but just for purposes of your question of what is it? Again, it depends who you ask.

15:42
Megan Westgate
To us, one of the hallmarks of UPF is that it's hyper palatable. So what we've seen over time is that food has been engineered to be addictive and to be high in calories and low in nutrients. And so that's why it's correlated with so many negative health outcomes. And a lot of people don't realize just how extensive the negative health outcomes are. In 2024, the British Medical Journal did an umbrella review of different studies that had been done Today, I think 45 different studies covering a total of 10 million participants. And what they found is that I think 71% of the different illnesses that they were looking at had a correlation with UPF consumption. So again, it's diabetes and cancer and heart disease and overweight, but also cognitive decline and depression.

16:35
Megan Westgate
It just affects almost every system of the body and there is a dose response relationship. So the more UPF someone eats, the higher risk they'll have for these illnesses. And on the bright side, when someone reduces their UPF consumption even a little bit, it can have positive impacts on, for example, their risk of diabetes. And so really what we're looking at is ultra processed food is now the majority of the food that people are eating in packages. But it is totally possible to make industrially produced food that is not ultra processed. And that's what we're seeing leadership from now in the natural products industry with this new program.

17:16
Daniel Scharff
Okay, that's really helpful. Can you give me some examples of yes, this thing is ultra processed according to our definition, or this thing you might think is, but it actually isn't because it actually does have over that 70% minimally processed ingredient. Any concrete examples to help us think about what would be and what might not be?

17:34
Megan Westgate
Sure, I will give an example of let's go into the breakfast cereal aisle. I'm a mom of two, so this is like a favorite one for me. And I admit I was definitely holding this in mind as we're designing the program. Just what is the experience of a busy parent in the grocery store trying to find real food that when they feed it to their children, it's going to be nourishing and not cause a meltdown? So one of the issues is that there is so much added refined sugar. And so even in a natural food store, even with organic and non GMO products that look Beautiful and nourishing. It's certainly not junk food. You know, no one would. It's not like the obvious Doritos oreos, but it might be 25% cane sugar in that breakfast cereal.

18:25
Megan Westgate
And any parents out there, like if you have ever watched the difference of if you start your kid's day off with 25% cane sugar versus a breakfast food that doesn't have that, like, you know the difference, it's a big deal. So when we talk about, like, how are we not only nourishing adult humans, but growing our young humans into the future adults who will be responsible for taking care of each other and the rest of life. Sugar is a big one. We also have seen a huge trend though toward non nutritive sweeteners, although that is starting to drop off. And that's something that we actually don't allow in this standard because they are ultra processed ingredients for the most part.

19:07
Daniel Scharff
What are some of those sweeteners, for.

19:08
Megan Westgate
Example, like stevia and monk fruit allulose. With the rise of diabetes, we've seen more and more ketogenic diets. We've seen an increase in those kind of alternatives, but we're now seeing consumers move away from them because there is this concern about highly refined substances. And so sugar and sweeteners are a huge one. We're obviously really addicted to the sweet flavor in this society. And so that's a challenging one. And for that reason, we did find a middle ground in the standard where we allow added sugar if it is less processed. So if it's fruit sugar or coconut sugar, maple honey, so those more natural, less refined sweeteners, because we know that realistically, brands need to make products that taste delicious to their shop, to their customers.

20:03
Megan Westgate
And sweet flavor is important, but there is a big range of the metabolic impact depending on the type of sugar that you choose.

20:10
Daniel Scharff
Okay, so that's pretty interesting because it ties into another question that I have for you, which is around how does this differ from some of the other claims that are out there, like organic or just general clean label? Because that's an interesting one because you could have organic stevia in a product and still qualify for organic, but if it has a lot of that, it's potentially not going to qualify for non UPF verified. So how would you talk about it in relation to some of the other standards out there in terms of what might qualify, but also how are consumers going to interpret it?

20:41
Megan Westgate
Yeah, so this is the only standard that looks exclusively at how the ingredients are actually processed. So the Sourcing is really important and obviously with non GMO project we care about that. Organic is super important. All the regenerative standards, you know, the sourcing matters. But there is a gap then in those other standards in terms of a comprehensive review of what happens to those ingredients and is the end product and actually a metabolically nourishing food. Another thing that we see has become rampant is there's just gums in everything. There's gums in your salad dressing and in your plant based milks and in your yogurt. It's all there to make everything taste creamier and to keep the product from separating. That's an example of this hyperpalatability where there's a mismatch between what the ingredients actually are and what the body thinks.

21:35
Megan Westgate
So like creaminess registers as fat and nutrition, but if it's coming from xanthan gum, that's not actually the reality of what your body is getting. As we looked comprehensively at food integrity and looked at where are there gaps, what we saw is that when it comes to minimal processing and additives, which is a growing consumer concern, there really wasn't a standard that addressed it. And interestingly we did some market research last summer and 52% of the respondents said that degree of processing was their primary concern. So more than said that they cared about non gmo, more than cared about organic. What they care about is how processed is my food. But there wasn't any way before this program for them to be able to identify how processed was my food.

22:25
Megan Westgate
You can't always tell by looking at an ingredient panel or a nutrition facts panel. You know, you can have for example rice flour in a product and it could be made any of several different ways with various degrees of the food matrix intact depending on the type of processing. Like it's stone ground, like your body's probably going to recognize it pretty similarly to how it would recognize rice. But it can be highly refined to where it's going to spike your glucose and not be metabolically nourishing. And so that's the kind of thing that's in scope of the standard is we actually go through and look at different types of processing, like biological, mechanical, thermal, and we assess which ones are totally permissible minimal processing, which ones are conditional.

23:12
Megan Westgate
So they can be used if at least 70% of the rest of the product is minimally processed. There is space for the conditional ingredients. So this is where you might see something like starches or proteins where they are more refined ingredients but they're still allowed in these verified products. And then we have a third category that's just completely prohibited processed because they are ultra processed. Like hexane extraction as an example is just not allowed.

23:40
Daniel Scharff
Okay, so when you were talking earlier about breakfast cereal, it was reminding me of this documentary they had on the history, a docu drama, I guess on the History Channel that they had called the Food that Built America. And I remember them going through some of those original now huge CPG companies as they were just getting into those first serial games. And you're just see like, whoa, there's a lot of sugar. And that's the takeaway when you're watching it. And so from there I was just thinking like, okay, what is the impact of these certification programs? If you look at across all of it, like number one, consumers who are really aware of these kind of standards have a much better tool heuristic to go and find the kind of products that meet their standards.

24:20
Daniel Scharff
Number two, retailers who are conscious of this have a really nice framework to figure out which products meet their standards without having to do all of the due diligence that your technical administrators and consultants are able to actually get into the weeds and really do. And then number three, I believe also there probably is a big impact on those large CPG companies as well, which I see with startups even, because those big CPG companies, they're so massive. Are they going to be looking at these kind of standards as well? Do you feel like it can actually turn the tide on some of the products they are making because they're more aware of it or they see a lot of companies that are maybe more natural, more agile, really orienting themselves around these new standards because that can be a huge impact.

25:06
Daniel Scharff
Right, when you can actually move those huge companies towards better standards as well.

25:11
Megan Westgate
Yes, and that absolutely is part of our ultimate aim, we say sought to find a balance of meaningfulness and achievability with the standard where the fact is that the majority of packaged food is ultra processed. It's not like we just want to rubber stamp that all, but we also don't want to make it completely inaccessible. So we tried to find that middle ground where yes, companies will have to reformulate, but it's feasible, there are alternatives and things they can do. So for example, they could replace cane sugar with coconut sugar. Like we tried to find pathways like that would be accessible. What we've been hearing so far from bigger CPGs and there's been tremendous response to this. We have over 300 brands that have expressed interest signed up for our wait list.

25:57
Megan Westgate
And so far our first verified products are from brands who participated in our pilot, which I'm happy to talk more about. But we have 115 products verified so far, which is really exciting. And that's primarily from. It's entirely actually from brands that have always been committed to more whole food products. What we've heard anecdotally and off the record from the bigger companies is likely the way that more established larger brands will get into this is through new product launches. And so I do think there is a huge opportunity for startups to formulate from the beginning to meet these consumer expectations again. I mean you look at the success of non GMO project and to be honest, when we started this, no one even knew what a GMO was like.

26:49
Megan Westgate
It would take me like 10 minutes to explain when I would just be meeting someone at a party. What do you do? Like the amount of backstory that I had to give for them to have any idea what it meant that I was doing this. Whereas now what we see with non UPF is just this incredible demand. Where in the research we did last summer, 72% of respondents said they're trying to avoid UPFs, but most of them don't know how to do that. I think we saw that 83% are interested in knowing more about how to avoid it, but only 37% considered themselves knowledgeable. And based on the further interviews we did with them, I don't know that we would agree that 37% was particularly knowledgeable. So there's a huge demand and interest from people to be able to easily identify these things.

27:33
Megan Westgate
But yeah, I think for legacy brands it's a bigger risk to reformulate long established products. But at the same time they recognize that is what their shoppers are increasingly looking for. So again, mostly what we're hearing is that they will be launching new products. Some companies are looking at a little bit of reformulation, but I think startups have a huge potential competitive edge here if they formulate from the beginning to keep their ingredients less processed.

28:02
Daniel Scharff
That is very interesting to hear about. It also is making me think about how I would browse the aisles and see some of the products from the major legacy CPG companies that would have some kind of a health claim on it or ingredient claim, like no artificial flavors, but that was the only thing it would say. And then you're like, well it has artificial colors though and it has artificial preservatives. But they're just like searching for the one thing that they could say that would give it a health halo. Like, come on guys, that's pretty cheap. Like no artificial flavors, manufactured in a full moon on the fourth day. Like they just like pick the one thing that they can really talk about.

28:37
Daniel Scharff
So I really do see the importance and beauty of just trying to hold everybody to a higher standard and helping people understand the stuff that fits that standard. One more question. Just on this kind of macro stuff and the cultural zeitgeist or whatever, we hear a lot right now about processed foods, rfk, all that stuff. What do you think is happening in the overall conversation that's going to affect how people are looking at this kind of a standard and certification and interest in it?

29:09
Megan Westgate
Well, I think really unfortunately, that the current reality is that almost everyone is affected by chronic disease driven by our poor diets and specifically ultra processed foods. So whether they themselves have an illness or a loved one does, almost everyone is increasingly affected by rising levels of dementia, obesity, heart disease, cancer, depression, other forms of cognitive decline. And the data is strikingly clear that there is a very strong correlation between what we're eating and this huge rise of illnesses, most of which were really rare only 50 years ago. And I think it's easy to, we're adaptable creatures. It's easy to just think like, yeah, that's normal.

30:00
Megan Westgate
I mean my kids school, I think close to a fifth of families since my son's in sixth grade, since he started grade school, close to a fifth of the kids, families in the class have been affected by cancer affecting their parents in the household. This is elementary school kids. You know, I live in a pretty health conscious area and that's just the sad reality. So I think that's unfortunately what's making this now unavoidable is that there is a reckoning that's really happening that is personally and directly affecting people and leaving us asking like, what can we possibly do to be more well and to protect ourselves and our loved ones from what's happening from our food? So yeah, I think it's unfortunate that it's politicized in some ways because I think it's really an issue that is beyond politics. It's a bipartisan issue.

30:54
Megan Westgate
Everyone wants to feel well, everyone wants their loved ones to be healthy and happy. And a lot of people are also thinking about the effect on other living beings beyond humans as well. So when you take all of that into consideration, it's pretty clear that business as usual cannot continue in terms of having the focus of our food be on making it cheap and addictive. We need more from our food. We need more integrity.

31:20
Daniel Scharff
Megan it's very cool how much you care about this topic, how much you know about it. It's really clear how much you think about it and from so many different angles from the broader, I'd just say human condition down to just directly how it impacts people in your community. And yes, I do know that about Bellingham, Washington area as well as like all the most health conscious people I know seem to post up there. So it doesn't surprise me at all that you are the person who was able to dream this up and get it done for non gmo. So just really excited to see where this goes and the impact that it will have just a little bit more tactically. Talk to me about what is it going to be like for brands who go on this journey seek the non UPF verification?

32:04
Daniel Scharff
What's it going to feel like? Where are they going to get started? What are the steps?

32:08
Megan Westgate
Yeah, so they can work with any one of our four technical administrators. And for folks who are already doing non GMO that'll be even easier. One of the things that's been surprising to us is that close to half of the brands who have expressed interest in this new program are not non GMO project verified. So I think were expecting to see more dual certification of the products verified. So far it mostly is non GMO project also, but there is a lot of interest beyond that. So if they aren't already in the program, they'll choose a ta. And this program, unlike Nanjumo Project, there's no testing required and there are no on site inspections required. So it's all a document based review.

32:51
Megan Westgate
The TAs can find out everything they need to by looking at documents and just depending on the ingredients that will affect how many different documents they ask for. We are in the process of creating standardized program documents so it will be more consistent than it is with non gmo. Regardless of what technical administrator someone is working with, there's a straightforward suite of paperwork. It involves things like ingredient specification sheets. Again, if someone's already doing non GMO or working with a ta, maybe on their organic certification or another certification, there will be information in existing paperwork that will provide some of what the TAs need. But there will likely be follow up questions about different manufacturing methods.

33:37
Megan Westgate
The simplest part of this is we do have a long list of prohibited ingredients and so just scanning, you know, that's a simple matter of making sure that nothing on the ingredient panel is on that prohibited list. But then from there it does get into actually looking up the way different ingredients are processed. And sometimes that will require disclosure from suppliers. And we're designing that to be as painless as possible. And also we have a one pager that brands can give suppliers to explain why they're asking these questions, what the value is of being able to provide it. Obviously there's a lot of sharing of ingredient supply. So we want to get ingredient suppliers really comfortable of having standard documents that they can give to any brand who's seeking this verification and hopefully make that quick and efficient.

34:23
Megan Westgate
So yeah, I think it's a simpler process than some other certifications. Again because we don't need to do the testing or the on site inspection. We can tell by looking at the paperwork whether or not a product meets this standard.

34:38
Daniel Scharff
That's super interesting. I do like the part where you said you don't necessarily have to do the on site inspection. I will say I have been through a different certification before where that was required. And we're like, what, you want to come to our coworking office? You're going to fly someone here and we have to wait till they can do that to get this done. And it was, this is kind of like a sustainability related type certification too. Like that doesn't seem very sustainable for them to fly here to our little desks. You know, we don't have ingredients here, we don't have production here. We just, this is where we happen to work. Like you don't need to come here.

35:09
Megan Westgate
Yeah, that's interesting. I mean like, so for non GMO verification, we obviously need to look and make sure that the equipment, when there's high risk, ingredients being processed, like we need to inspect the cleanout process, all of that, you know, but that's just not relevant in the same way for this. And yeah, I can't imagine why someone would need to go to your office.

35:27
Daniel Scharff
Not my favorite part. And then you get a lot of anxiety like they're coming here. I don't, I need to tidy up and sweep under the. I don't know. So I do like that. It seems very thoughtfully done. What are you hearing from some of the key stakeholders in the industry? What are you hearing from retailers, distributors, investors, some of the people that brands care a lot about?

35:50
Megan Westgate
We are hearing ubiquitous interest in this, I think because it's starkly different again than when we started non GMO project. Like no one is asking ultra processing, what's that? Like everyone is like, oh, ultra processing. We know we need to be doing something about that. How are you thinking about it, how can we get involved? There's just, it's so clearly established that this is a health concern and also that shoppers are interested in avoiding it. It's really different than with non GMO project. For years I would go to expo and just be in every half hour a new meeting trying to explain this and convince brands why they should care about non GMO with this. I haven't had a single conversation with a brand where they're like, I don't know if this is that important. I don't know if people really care.

36:36
Megan Westgate
Like everyone realizes that they need to do something about this. And so I think that this is maybe going to be unlike anything we've ever seen. And I'm pretty excited to see how it unfolds.

36:46
Daniel Scharff
It's very exciting. And I think I remember seeing a data slide at one point that said non GMO is actually the historically, last couple of years has been the biggest claim cited on packaging at any of the claims out there. So I know you know how to really and just get these certifications to a place where they're high quality and people are really paying attention to them. So I'm sure it will go well for you. How do you talk to brands about how they're going to communicate this to consumers? Because probably, yeah, okay, we're starting at the beginning for this kind of a certification. Consumers don't know about it yet necessarily. Brands have that opportunity to tell them about it and their standards and how they got this. What would you recommend to brands about how to talk about that to the shoppers?

37:29
Megan Westgate
Well, interestingly, even though there's differences in how people define it, the term ultra processed is widely recognized already by shoppers. Again, in our research, more shoppers are saying that they care about avoiding ultra processed foods than are saying they care about avoiding GMOs or that they're looking for organic, which was mind blowing to us because those are obviously really valued and established certifications. So more what we're hearing from brands is that like some of our pilot brands like Amy's and Simple Mills and Spindrift, what they're saying is that this label is helping them communicate more clearly what they have always stood for that they haven't had a really succinct way to convey to differentiate themselves. And Simple Mills is playing with some romance copy that I think may be going onto some of their packages.

38:18
Megan Westgate
So that's something to check out to just see how they're describing what this commitment is. But what we're seeing from the early adopters is that it's important for them to communicate that this is something they've always cared about. It's how they've always been making their food. And this label is helping make it recognizable and simple for consumers, Like a simple way to talk about their whole food formulation and their commitment to making food that's actually nourishing. And again, in the space where we still don't have a definition for natural, it is also a signal for that, like, this is real food that will nourish you.

38:53
Daniel Scharff
I like hearing that as I am standing here drinking my spindrift blood orange, which.

38:58
Megan Westgate
Oh, my gosh. That's one of my favorites.

39:00
Daniel Scharff
It's so. Spindrift is so good. The blood orange tangerine. My favorite is the nojito, which is lime and mint. Oh, my gosh, it's good.

39:10
Megan Westgate
Have you had the one that has passion fruit in it? Is that the passion fruit guava? The island.

39:15
Daniel Scharff
The tropical punch. Yeah. I love the island punch. It's so good.

39:18
Megan Westgate
So good.

39:19
Daniel Scharff
Because I have parties at my house and half the people don't drink anymore, and so I just stock the fridge with different fun flavors of spindrift and people are quite excited.

39:30
Megan Westgate
Totally. And my kids love them because obviously we don't drink soda in our house. So, you know, it's like, I think spindrift is a beautiful example of you don't need to put flavors and sugar. Wow. Nature made some really good stuff. It's called fruit delicious.

39:45
Daniel Scharff
I just imagine that your kids are growing up. If you've ever seen the movie Twins, where Arnold Schwarzenegger grows up in this perfect environment where it's just on an island with natural fruit and everything is perfect and natural. And Danny DeVito grows up with just like, trash everything. I'm like, I think your kids are growing up with that perfect, idyllic picture of health kind of thing. So that'll be exciting to follow along. Okay, so, Megan, as we wrap up here, what is a good way for brands just to really start orienting around this and product developers and everybody. I mean, you said before, I think really good for them to have a good look at that. No, no. List of ingredients that just are not going to be allowed in this new non UPF world. So starting to look at that.

40:28
Daniel Scharff
What are other good ways for them to get started with this? Get in touch with you guys, get on their journey?

40:33
Megan Westgate
Yeah. Well, if you go to our Website, non ultra processed.org we have some really good resources there. So one, our custom market research that we did with Linkage last summer is available for free. So you can see all the consumer insights, some of which I've mentioned today. But you can just download that and just get a sense of what are shoppers saying right now about what they're looking for. We also have on that website an executive brief. So the standard is also available for download, encourage people to look at that. We did try to make it pretty accessible, but if you're not going to read the whole standard, the executive brief is a good alternative that just gives kind of a high level of what is the scope of consideration and some of the key things to avoid.

41:18
Megan Westgate
But I think taking a look at the standard could be useful because that's where you'll find the list of prohibited ingredients. That's where you'll find the annex that classifies different processing methods. So if you know anything about what your processing methods are, you could check that out and see how they're classified. And you can also see more about our approach to for example, the refined added sugars, where our approach to that is that we have limits by category. So there is a different percentage limit, for example for breakfast foods as compared to soups or you know, and we do have a higher threshold for confectioneries and chocolates. So our aim is to make it so that every area of the grocery store can have non UPF verified products.

42:03
Megan Westgate
And yeah, our website has good context and also of course a way to contact us because we are happy to answer questions and talk with people.

42:12
Daniel Scharff
All right, Megan, thank you so much. I'm very inspired by the work you're doing as well as you as I don't know if you'd say entrepreneur the same way when it's non profit, but as a non profit change maker entrepreneur, I'll take it. Yeah, I mean just I really congratulations for all of the success that you've had with this and growing it and all the impact that you've had in the industry. Really, this is a real treat for me to get to interview you today.

42:38
Megan Westgate
Thank you so much, Daniel. I'm a big fan of what you do and I appreciate the chance to be here with you.

42:43
Daniel Scharff
All right, thank you again. Hope you guys enjoyed. Well, my friends, we've now arrived together at the end of another episode of the Startup CPG podcast, the top globally ranked podcast in cpg. As you may know, we're not just a podcast, we're a community of brands and experts and you should join. You can sign up@startupcpg.com. You'll then get an invite to our online Slack community. You're going to hear about amazing events near you, all of our special opportunities to get you in front of buyers, investors, brands and more. It's a free community. So what are you waiting for? I will see you there or on our next episode. Bye Bye.