The Startup CPG Podcast

John Craven
The barriers to finding stuff was pretty hard and obviously now it's the reverse. Like you want to launch a brand with a pretty slick looking package. It's not that hard to figure out who you need to hire to do it. You have options to some extent, like democratize the whole thing a bit, made it more accessible. But the barriers to entry are certainly lower than ever. But the standards are way higher. I mean, if you look at like the typical products that were launched 20 years ago, it's like you just roll in with that farmer's market, some crappy graphics vibes to it. That was okay. You just can't do that anymore.

00:46
Daniel Scharff
Welcome to the Startup CPG podcast. Today we are featuring a fixture in the CPG media industry. It's John Craven. John is one of my role models. He is the founder of BevNET and Nosh and today I get to ask him something that I always wondered, which is how did he start and grow BevNET 30 years ago into what it is today? It's an amazing story and the perspectives he has on the CPG industry are incredible to hear. Just think when he started the disruptor brands were Snapple and Arizona Iced Tea. So he has the long view on trends and characteristics that can set brands and founders apart. I'm so excited for you to hear it.

01:22
Daniel Scharff
I also just want to thank John for being a pioneer in new media and he provides a vital platform for emerging brands to stand out and get the attention they need and deserve in the industry. All right, you are going to love this. Let's go. All right, John, my friend, I'm so excited to finally have you here on the podcast and I have so many questions for you. As one of the people that I really look up to in this industry and has been so helpful to us and startup CPG as we've grown. First of all, hit us with the good stuff. Could we have a quick intro please?

01:57
John Craven
Sure. My name is John Craven. I'm the founder and CEO of BevNET. BevNET produces all sorts of different media products. Our core websites, bevnet.com, nosh.com, brewbound.com we also have a print magazine still because people in the CPG world still like a magazine in the back of their distributorship or retail outlet and quite course have podcasts just like we're one right now and Taste Radio and CPG Week and the brewbound podcast and then have live events for BevNET Live, Nosh Live, brewbound Live and our Taste Radio meetup. So hopefully that Gives you a sense that we're just all over the place in cpg.

02:37
Daniel Scharff
So probably if you're a brand, the order that you might discover all of those things as you're starting and thinking about getting coverage for your brand and your launch and your expansion. My guess is if you're a beverage brand, probably first you're going to hear about BevNET. If you're a snack brand, maybe hear first about Nosh the Elk World I don't know a lot about, but you guys do. And so probably brands first hear about you guys doing coverage of them in those categories and they're eager to get coverage for their brand. They want to share their stories, they want buyers to hear about it, distributors, people in the industry. And so they're probably coming to you first about that stuff. Is that right? Is that onboarding point, let's say, for a brand into the BevNET universe?

03:19
John Craven
To some extent, yes. I think there's a lot of founders out there who consume our content when they're just trying to figure out how to make their idea a reality too. And I think is CPG has become more, I don't know, mainstream, if you will. I think there's also people who tune in and probably tune into your podcast and platform as well that are just. It's like they're the hammer in search of a nail. They want to be in CPG and they haven't figured out the idea yet. They're just looking at what other companies are doing. And I think once they launch, then, yes, it moves into looking to get coverage or looking to get the word out there. So it's really, as time has progressed where all these different mediums exist.

04:04
John Craven
Like, it is really interesting to see who kind of goes through what door. And certainly I think some of those early stage founders now, they might find us on Instagram or something. You know, they're not doing the old like Google search like you or I might have when were starting out. So. Or I guess I've been at this so long I went to the library, to be honest. But anyway, probably knows what that is if under the age of 35, I.

04:29
Daniel Scharff
Suppose so that's so funny to think about even for. For my first job out of college, I worked for a company called Morningstar. They do investment research. And yeah, I mean you had to go to the library to get there for big annual reports, which were expensive but available through the library. And I remember going in there the night before the interview so I could get access to it. And reading through it poring over it, coming up with nice little insights for my interview, which it worked out. It actually was super helpful that I had gone there to the library and done that research. It really came in handy. Yeah.

05:00
John Craven
I mean, it's like you had a search for information once. It was hard. It's not hard anymore, right? Yeah.

05:06
Daniel Scharff
And now we're in this chatgpt world. Gotta help us. I don't understand it, but we're all getting there together. This world of just TikTok and ChatGPT, that's where we are today. And who knows what comes tomorrow. But speaking of this evolution, John, one of the things that I would love to ask you is take us back to the beginning. The origin story of BevNET, like what was made you want to do it? What was the industry like at that point that gave you the inspiration to start it? And just like, what did the industry feel like at that point?

05:35
John Craven
Man, the world that I started in this was in 1996. I was a college student, not legal to drink alcohol or anything at that point. I guess I had a driver's license then. But I grew up on Long island in New York. And the cool brands at the time, if you could believe this, were Snapple, who had this crazy campaign of the Snapple lady and these little cap facts thing, like real cutting edge marketing. Right. To anyone who's doing modern stuff. And also like Arizona iced tea, you know, these were like these cult, certainly not better for you brands, but they were better brands than what was out there. And you know, I went to school up in Boston where I am now at Boston College.

06:20
John Craven
And I was someone who had a little bit of an entrepreneurial spirit from having a Newsday paper route for many years. And I was studying marketing and computer science at BC and one of our tasks was make a webpage, which again, think library and books and all this complicated dumb stuff like ChatGPT could do that in like two seconds, right? But man, you know, it'd be cool to get some free stuff and just started putting up pictures, which this was like with an early digital camera. I don't even know how you got pictures on the Internet back then, but I was just putting up pictures of random beverages that I found in my sort of path. And I realized I could go to the library.

07:05
John Craven
There was a beverage World magazine and it was literally just the pitch was like, hey, I'll put your product on the Internet. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know that this was like a thing. My father Was like a person who spent his entire career in like the media world mostly originally like women's magazines, these sort of old school things that I'm not even sure exist anymore. And then in B2B publishing and he was like, oh, you know, that's a publishing company. And just sort of went from one thing to the next where people were like starting to see it. And at that point, like when you launch a beverage company, it was like you pitched Beverage World or one of the other magazines.

07:47
John Craven
In six months you might be in an issue which is for any early stage entrepreneur out there, that's just way too slow. So that was really the efficiency were solving and at some point decided, hey, we should sell a banner ad and this or that. Mind you, this is in like the era of the Internet where there's still have this around somewhere. Like I had a magazine, it was called something cheesy like Internet World. I have Jeff Bezos on the COVID like starting his bookstore. And I don't know, there's all these other things I probably could have started, but I started BevNET originally the BevNET, kind of like the Facebook.

08:21
John Craven
It's funny because all these things that you take for granted now and can do in minutes, like accepting credit cards or registering a domain, like we're talking using the US Postal service and fax machines and all that. But I could go on about all the differences for like an hour, but I'm probably already boring some people. So to your other question of what was the industry like, it's funny, I mean, it just again, it was so different. There were all these like legacy multigenerational families that had these not really better for you or even better products that I don't know, There was kind of a point where like if you look at sort of the steps of CPG at that point, which I think beverage did play a pretty big role innovating this like emerging CPG space.

09:10
John Craven
There were brands like Red Bull coming to the US or monster launching. And were in this really kind of strange spot for a while. That cpg, again, it was not like place people like aspire to be in. Famous founder of a beverage company that I won't name. My favorite quote of the time was basically that you ended up in beverage either because you were born in it, like your last name's like bush or you effed up somewhere. So that's very different than now. We're like, we're in the backyard of Carver Business School. And every once in a While there's like an HBS student that wants to come talk about the CPG brand they're going to launch, it's totally different.

09:48
John Craven
I think the catalyst for me, and to be honest, I don't know if I'd still be in this industry, was the mid-2000s, which is really when, like Expo west became legit. The whole idea of natural better for you, do good became an important part of the DNA of a lot of CPG companies. And I think that's where we're at today, the continuation of that. And the idea is that we're like the fringe back then, have a chance at the mainstream. You know, 15 years ago, they really didn't. Natural brands were like stuck in some, like a natural store. There was no mainstream retailer saying, hey, I want organic stuff or whatever.

10:24
Daniel Scharff
Okay, let's say today I love this industry. CPG is so much fun. We go. We just were at Expo recently and there is a thriving ecosystem of people. Investors, retailers, distributors. They're supporting merging brands. There's a big community of us out there. So if we contrast the this today, let's say peak cpg, emerging brand, better for you with where you started. What was the evolution like, though? Were there mark periods where you're like, yeah, that made a big difference. Now we're seeing a lot more entrepreneurship in CPG or a lot more support or a lot more attention around this. And maybe it was you that did it or everybody, maybe you guys probably. You had a big impact there also. But are there any times that you could point to, like, yeah, really, it was like this then.

11:10
Daniel Scharff
And then it changed a lot after this. Or periods where it accelerated a lot?

11:14
John Craven
Yeah, I mean, look, were definitely an enabler of this. And I think to some extent were one of the first media outlets to ever really champion the founders and the brands of these emerging players, because otherwise they were like, I don't know, a little bit of like. We put on our BevNET live conference, which is all about emerging and we love to showcase the success stories. The poppy being an extreme, of course, but I think a lot of this stuff, even if you had a pretty good little business going, it was like you still were just pissing in the wind compared to Coke or Pepsi. That's kind of how they were treated. And I think really it is just the classic follow the money type of thing where these big deals that happened in that time period, that was like uncharted territory, really.

12:03
John Craven
Things like a Snapple being acquired, things like Vitamin Water being acquired, you know, There were these sort of big kind of monumental deals along the way that I think what people probably don't think about is that with each one of these cycles and some big sort of, again, mega exit that fuels the next generation, someone who saw Vitamin water and it exits coat for billions probably was sitting there. And I remember people sitting there going, man, you know, that stuff's just colored flavored water. I can do better than that. You know, I've got the next $10 billion idea or whatever. And there was a point where that mid-2000s where, like the scale kind of tipped in the direction of people realizing that there's a lot of legacy brands out there that they're just hanging on.

12:50
John Craven
When I was a kid, I remember people being like, oh, what breakfast cereal do you eat? Or are you a Coke or Pepsi drinker? And like, people's allegiance to CPG brands and just brands in general was so different, but there also was way less choice. What breakfast cereal do I eat? I don't know. It's probably like a General Mills product, right? Like, how much choice is there? You know? And it's interesting because I feel like at the time, there have been so many times where people have called like, Peak Beverage or Peak cpg, but I think we're just still so far from that in that those same legacy brands that people have been chipping away at for like 25 plus years are still there. They're just still hemorrhaging buyers, you know, hemorrhaging dollars. And it's not going nowhere.

13:31
John Craven
Like, it's not like people need to eat less or drink less. Right? It's just going somewhere else.

13:36
Daniel Scharff
It's pretty interesting to think about that and reflect on, like being a kid. And there's Coke or Pepsi or whoa, maybe the wild ones were out there with Tab or RC Cola or something like that, but there definitely weren't startups. So I guess you kind of have to ask yourself, what are those big enablers that made it possible? I think just halo of an interest in entrepreneurship generally that started with, I think, probably a lot of very successful companies, not just in cpg, obviously, but Facebook and Google and people just getting more interested in it. And I can reflect when I was coming out of business school, I mean, even going to Google then this was 2009 that I graduated. The people who went to Google, you're like, whoa, buddy, you're risky, huh? Now that would.

14:19
Daniel Scharff
It's one of the best jobs that you can get. And then almost nobody went into startups at that point. It was just a wild thing to do with your career. And now like you said, so many kids of that pedigree really interested in starting companies and I think it's barriers to entry are low I think and I don't know what they were like in that era. If you could just walk around and find a coman probably now it's a lot easier to get access to them with the resources that are out there. Startup CPG resources databases on our website if you'll find them. But so many lists and email addresses and even though comands are not that great at answering their email.

14:54
John Craven
Well, look, I mean I think even things that we people complain about now like LinkedIn, you know, it's like you just don't realize how easy this stuff is. And one of the first sort of founders that I really got in touch with since he was in my own backyard was Tom first who now does culture pop but had a brand called Nantucket Nectars back then and he's been in this industry longer than me and talks about they were trying to look up. I think it was like a flavor company or a co packer in like the yellow pages, you know it just the barriers to finding stuff was pretty hard and obviously now it's the reverse. Like you want to launch a brand with a pretty slick looking package. It's not that hard to figure out who you need to hire to do it.

15:40
John Craven
You have options to some extent like democratize the whole thing a bit, made it more accessible. But the barriers to entry are certainly lower than ever. But the standards are way higher. I mean if you look at like the typical products that were launched 20 years ago it's like you could just roll in with that farmer's market, some crappy graphics vibes to it that was okay. Like you just can't do that anymore. I would say it's weird, it's like gotten easier but I think it's way more cutthroat it ever was before. I think back then you also wouldn't have, I don't know, it would take a while before someone realizes you have a good idea.

16:14
John Craven
Before like all the other competitors start popping up and now it's cycles are so short you have a whiff of a good idea and all of a sudden you'll have competition. Unless you have a truly bad idea. I guess so yeah, a lot of.

16:26
Daniel Scharff
Competition out there which you're up against. But also the buyers now have that mechanism they are out there looking for new brands that is just how they operate. So more opportunity and More competition. And yeah, you can launch a brand that looks like a national brand, that's high quality with good ingredients and tastes good and looks good. So it's definitely an interesting time. And thus was born the Erewhon Beverage Cooler, full of unicorn, delicious, colorful beverages that are full of the hopes and dreams of each one of those entrepreneurs as well. So you mentioned something before I wanted to come back to. You talked about monumental moments, game changer, pivotal times for the industry, major acquisitions that really inspired a lot of people. I'm wondering, so fast forward today.

17:15
Daniel Scharff
Can you see things that are happening now that you feel like will actually have a big ripple effect on the industry? And I know, I mean, let's say two, three years ago, things were a little bleak in my opinion. I think there were not a lot of acquisitions happening and which is very important and I only learn more about this over time. But what I understand is those big CPGs out there because I don't think they grow a ton organically. Mainly they would be looking at M and A for growth. They used to ascribe very high multiples to some of these startups because they can plug them into their systems and get their cost down and get lots of growth with them and say they were probably overpaying for them, which when they do that, great, like the industry flourishes.

17:54
Daniel Scharff
A lot of people start companies, they'll just pump them full of cash to grow them and then there's a good exit when those companies slow down, whoa, it's tough because they stop buying or they stop buying as high multiples. That means later stage investors also tighten their belts in terms of what they can expect from an exit. So they'll invest less and then the smaller investors who think they're going to then get the support from those. So it really trickles down in a way that you can actually visualize. So in the last year or two, I don't know, at least there is a lot more M and A activity, C Foods and a couple others. But do you see anything like that happening in the last couple years where you're like that's going to really impact this industry?

18:30
John Craven
Yeah, well, I mean, look, I think first of all, I'd say that having been in this industry for a long time and having seen things ranging from 9, 11 to the Great Recession to Covid, what I would say is that this is also an industry that even the things you were talking about with like the big CPG companies, I mean they kind of have a history of. I have a pretty simple, logical way to explain this here. They're like, gee whiz, you know, we need to get in on this action because there's all these cool brands, right? Then they buy some, maybe they overpay. So then they set up their own little innovation whatever division that's going to go out there and find that stuff and get them invested earlier so they don't have to pay a lot for them.

19:15
John Craven
And then after a while for a public fortune whatever company, they can't just say all the cool stuff's in this little tiny division. They at some point have to roll it back in and then the cycle just kind of repeats over time. You know, a lot of these strategics have like tried and tried again with having a division that's supposed to be out there tied it. But in reality like big companies don't do well is clearly innovation and incubation which obviously they need billion dollar brands, like they need billion dollar SKUs in some cases.

19:47
John Craven
So like if they acquire a brand for like $1 billion that has a dozen SKUs, it kind of when it goes through that big company process and decision tree of invest in whatever brands a billion dollars but not growing or invest in this other company that's one skew of the core brand is small. Right. Like they just aren't good at that stuff. So I think they just go through this time and time again where it's like yeah, we're not going to do that again. But they also can't just sit there idly. If a brand like Poppy is kind of eating their lunch, right. That's created meaningful market share, was probably just going to keep getting bigger. They're just going to sit there and watch or let somebody else buy it. Probably not.

20:29
John Craven
So I guess where I'm getting to though is I look at something like the Poppy acquisition and that to me it's the same thing again that's fueling other people who see dollar signs. And what's challenging is a lot of times the newcomers that come into the industry, I don't know, be it Silicon Valley investors or whoever, they don't really pay attention to the whole story. They pay attention to like the hyper growth time and when they got the exit, not the early days where it was Mother beverage and they didn't know what they were doing yet. Right. So I think a lot of times like yes, a mega acquisition is always sort of lubricant for the whole like financial system here.

21:08
John Craven
But I guess making a tsunami reference here of like the water receding before the big Wave, I think that's kind of what we saw where it's fine, the money's pulling back, just doubling, investors are doubling down on the companies they're already in, trying to fuel those. And then eventually we get the hits and then the cycle just kind of repeats. So I think there were a lot of people who are first time entrepreneurs who were just like, oh, it's a game over for cpg. And it's like, no, that's just not how the environment works here. And to be frank, historically things like economic fears have actually made CPG seem like a pretty safe bet in that people always need to eat and drink, right?

21:46
John Craven
So if you're worried about investing in tech because of AI, well, gee whiz, like CPG looks like a pretty good spot to put your money. That's kind of how it's worked. And I think the cycle we're in now, the question is always, how much sort of room do we get here? How long does a poppy acquisition or any other bunch of deals, you know, we've had a bunch of good solid exits in the past couple of years. How long does that fuel people's interest? And for sure, we also do need a steady stream of brands that build up to a meaningful size and do get acquired. Right. FMNA sort of stops. That's bad. But as I was saying before, I think the risks of that are, to be honest, pretty low. So I think since COVID the cycles have gotten shorter.

22:29
John Craven
I would say is kind of my only observation that has had its own shock through. CPG used to be more like maybe five to seven years and it felt like were on a weird couple of three year cycles there. But we'll see. I mean, again, I'm pretty bullish on like where we're headed though.

22:46
Daniel Scharff
It's so interesting to just hear this kind of retrospective on the industry. And I am wondering, there are other brands that grow really fast and then I don't know if they keep growing that way. Let's talk about something like prime, right? And okay, there are other people in that poppy space who are trying to run that playbook. We've got Stiller soda and it's the accessibility to the consumer in a lot of ways is easier now because of influencers, partnerships, affiliates, all that kind of stuff where you don't have to rely on being big enough to purchase a national advertisement. Right. But my question I guess is when you, because you've seen so many brands rise in different ways and tumble, do you feel like when you see a brand grow now, whether it's hyperspeed or a slow build.

23:35
Daniel Scharff
Do you feel like, you know, what brand really might be a fad? Let's say I don't know where prime sales are now, but I know it did not live up to the hype that we all saw right when they were out of the gate just being sold on eBay even, versus some of the ones, let's say like Poppy, at least so far that looks like it has a lot more staying power potential to grab and maintain significant share in the industry. Do you feel like you can see that as they're growing?

24:02
John Craven
Yes and no. I mean, I feel like if you take a brand like prime that had a really rapid rise, you know, in retrospect, I think one of the things that has always been really dangerous is going from scarcity to just overwhelming volume, like being everywhere. And you know, I think that is a lot of times hard to translate where like consumers got in to your product when it was like hard to find and it was exclusive. And then in a really short window, it became the thing that you couldn't escape. Right. And again like a really. It's one of those things that it's really hard to manufacture that it's not really, I would say necessarily like actionable thing for most entrepreneurs. Like obviously the Logan Paul KSI thing, like they just had their own platforms to promote this.

24:51
John Craven
But what I would say otherwise is a lot of times it's just easier to point out the things that aren't going to work than are going to work because frankly, like no one really truly knows what the consumer is going to like latch onto hard. I think what always interesting to me are the brands that are just kind of out there doing their thing and maybe there's some bigger sort of education hurdle or mainstream awareness needle that needs to move and then it just happens and that brand that's been doing its thing, heads down, all of a sudden like becomes the 20 year overnight success. And certainly there's brands, if you look at something like a Celsius, for example, to give another beverage example, that company's been around a long time, it tried a bunch of stuff and then finally they figured it out.

25:38
John Craven
I think more than anything, point is just, I think for brands it's always kind of being realistic about just where consumer adoption and education is as well as just not being afraid to adapt and pivot without totally throwing away your company's mission. Right. I wouldn't go from selling maybe ethnic Mexican products to hey, everyone else is selling thc Drinks. I'm gonna go just sell that. But I think smarter pivots, if you look at like a, a Siete Foods as an example, since I mentioned a Mexican style product they were selling, it was like an almond flour tortilla. That was their original thing with kind of a. I forget what the brand is.

26:15
John Craven
They brought it to our, one of our events when they just started out and then it's like they pivoted and they had all these different products and like, gee whiz, I don't know, people like their chips and stuff, right? But I think the point I was trying to make is really just for any entrepreneur, it is just that constant pivot and evolution rather than just saying, hey, this is what we're make, we're going to just consumers are going to like it type of thing. It's just such a hard, nuanced business. As you pointed out before, those nuances like really matter. And I'm, I think such a tough business in that regard since you actually have to hit, go on your corrupt run at some point and have this whole pile of product that you need to sell.

26:52
Daniel Scharff
It's so interesting to think about. By the way, do you know the date that Celsius first went public?

26:59
John Craven
Not off the top of my head. It's been a pretty long time though.

27:02
Daniel Scharff
It's 2006, 20 years ago for me. That was so surprising to learn this. And probably you've seen some of those old bottles that they were sold in. I've seen them almost like in a museum. It looks like so different. And I think you're totally right. Some of these brands at some moment in time figure out a really clever rebrand pivot, something that just completely changes the game for them. And I'm really impressed with the founders. I would say that not just have the skill to do that, but also the awareness to know when maybe it might be time to look for something like that.

27:35
Daniel Scharff
Because one of the hardest things for me is seeing a founder where, okay, I can see it's probably not going to work out, but they are going to keep beating the dead horse, let's call it for years, probably trying to make it work. I'm just like, you could, I feel like you could completely change what you're doing and maybe you'd have a shot at it. But for the ones who really see that and figure it out, isn't that impressive? I don't know if I'm the kind of person who could give up on so much effort in one lane and swim in A different lane.

28:03
John Craven
Yeah, I think what's really hard is just that a lot of founders like start out with, hey, I want to make something wildly different and unique. It's like the truly build a better mousetrap type of thing. And one of the things I say a lot to founders is if you look at everything that's gone big and massive, it's pretty much with some exception. But it's incremental innovation over something that consumers already buy a lot of. And Celsius is a great example of their original product, which was marketed as this calorie burning thing. And Again, this was 20 years ago at least. It was just so far ahead of its time.

28:43
John Craven
Like if they tried to explain that to a consumer, it's probably need like an exec from the company to like stand at a demo table and have a three minute conversation with every consumer for maybe a 50% chance that they'll understand it. Whereas if you look at a brand now like Celsius, you could say this about, or Poppy or Siete for that matter. Any of these that have gone big, it's like, hey, I don't know, do you eat tortilla chips? Yes. Well, cool. Check these out. They're a little better than what you buy now. Like, that's literally kind of what they're all doing. And I think that's a hard pill for like a lot of founders to swallow. And that again, they might have something that they're doing that's really unique and price points high, margins bad, I don't know, whatever it might be.

29:25
John Craven
But some of these products, as they just simplify it becomes an easier path to victory. Part of why it's a hard pill for a lot of founders to swallow is a lot of times that thing that let you get a foot in the door. Or maybe people in the industry go, oh, wow, that's really cool what you're doing. You might have to abandon some of that for like commercial success. Right. And again, I don't think there's any, there's no shame in doing that. Having a really unique, wild, complicated something that other people aren't going to do because it's hard. And you've made a really top notch product, even if it can only sell at Erewhon for 10 bucks. Like that's fun.

30:04
John Craven
You know, that's a way to get in the game, I think to some extent going on that journey and evolving, figuring out your mainstream product. But Coconut Cult's a good example of one that's trying to do that right? Now really handmade product. And now they've figured out how to, like put a product in a cup and sell it in Target that's just as tasty as their original. You know, like, you just have to do that. But I think if they launched with hey, we're a coconut yogurt and a cup of and we're mainstream, like, that's not that interesting. You know, almost 100% of the time part of the journey for CPG brands now.

30:37
Daniel Scharff
All right. I mean, I love this journey of the beverages and CPG brands in general. But I also wanted to follow up way back when we started to just talk a little bit more about BevNET specifically because I am also a media entrepreneur. I'm so curious about how you managed to grow this business especially. Okay, you said in the early days that you basically just threw up this website and started putting pictures of beverages on there. And that was really attractive to companies that probably didn't know how to get stuff on the Internet. And they're like, oh, you could put my thing on the Internet. That sounds great. There obviously has to be a value proposition there around an audience. So how do you build the audience over time? You guys have a very big audience now. You get tons of websites, visits.

31:21
Daniel Scharff
How did you actually start building that? When did it start to build itself?

31:26
John Craven
I mean, to be honest, it kind of got a following pretty quickly. I mean, by the time I would say I was leaving College, which was 1998, we already had a reputation. I think I had gone my first trade show at that point. It's just sort of brick by brick, word of mouth almost. And I think it's at that point in time, I mean, it's pretty funny. I mean, it almost just didn't feel like a fair fight of were only on the Internet and all these other companies like our competition. I'm not even sure when they first had websites, but it was a pretty long time and we kind of fulfilled that need of man. If you're a beverage founder or whatever, like you just want to see new products, you can come on our website every day and see a new one.

32:09
John Craven
You know, I mean, it was really like pretty simple, but at that point in time wasn't competing with a million social media platforms and all this other stuff that competes for our attention. There wasn't really a lot of media to consume at that point. That was industry are in. It really was just sort of natural bill type of thing. I wish I could say we had a strategy, but outside of just finding new Stuff and putting it on our site, that was kind of it. I don't even think we started adding like industry news until maybe, geez, three, four years later or something like that. But it was a business and that we had some advertising revenue, but it was truly just a hobby. And I was leaving college. It was the dot com era.

32:51
John Craven
Like I went and did other stuff, but kind of kept this going in the background for a while. You know, I think it's really hard to leave CPG once you're in it, even back in those days.

33:00
Daniel Scharff
John, I've been to your office. It's very cool. Extremely jealous, I think. As would be anyone be who walks in there. It's in the suburbs of Boston, right. And it's beautiful, it's big, it's new feeling, it's cool. All this different kind of space. You have studios in there. I just imagine you must have a pretty nice feeling about this thing that you've built. Walking in there into such a cool space all the time filled with people who share your passion for this industry. Do you look back at having built this thing, which it seems like in the early days when you kind of were like keeping going, but not actually even fully committed to until you saw a lot of traction. But how do you look at it now and feel about the thing that you've built?

33:44
John Craven
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I walk into my office that I walk into every day and go, man, it's cool. I think it's. I've been an entrepreneur for, God, 30 years. At this point, it's kind of all I know. And I think at this point in my life maybe feel the weight of the responsibility of having this team and then to look after and also knowing that the industry is looking at what we do. And I don't know, I guess even I don't mean this altruistically, but it's like we need to keep this industry on the tracks for our own benefits too. But again, I think it's sort of a lot to process sometime, if I'm being totally honest.

34:20
John Craven
And part of why I bring that up is I think, you know, a lot of people who start businesses, they don't really think about the like, realities of it. They just think, oh man, I want to make this product, you know, and they're psyched to create the product. And then there's all the other stuff that comes with being an entrepreneur that I've certainly taken my share of punches over the years. And again, I think it's just sort of, like, the weight of the responsibility. I think part of surviving as an entrepreneur is a sense of maybe paranoia and focusing on, like, the risks and the hard part, rather than being like, oh, yeah, I'm psyched. And that's not that I don't love what I do, believe me, but not for everyone.

35:01
John Craven
You know, it also is just such a cool industry to be a part of and to see all these different journeys. And it's fun to have played even a small role in the success of some of these entrepreneurs and brands. So, yeah, that's my feel on that.

35:18
Daniel Scharff
I like that answer. I was just remembering once, when I was running a beverage brand, someone said something about me I really didn't appreciate. Made me very sad, unhappy. And my mom said to me, whoa, in this industry, you need a really thick skin and you don't have one. Such. Not for the faint of heart, a lot of this stuff, especially as you get success, then the punches come harder also, and hopefully you get better at absorbing them. But, John, I always. I say this. You and I have had this discussion a bunch of times, and I've had it with your wife. Even of John is real chill. Like, you're very chill about everything. Me, I think I am definitely anxious person about stuff. And, like, always running around trying to get everything settled. You have a very calm demeanor.

36:04
Daniel Scharff
And I asked her, I'm like, what gets under his skin? Has anything ever gotten his. She's like, no, I don't. He's pretty relaxed and chill about everything. I aspire to be that way.

36:13
John Craven
Yeah. Yes and no. I mean, I think, to be honest, it's more to what I was just saying a minute ago. It's you just because you have to good at compartmentalizing stuff. And to be clear, I think it's at a certain level, maybe you have to get good at compartmentalizing to an almost unhealthy level sometimes, too. And that as a business owner, it's like there's just the stuff that happens, things that don't go right or, I don't know, people on the team that move on. These just natural things or problems that other people don't know how to solve, stuff that other people at your company sort of sleep well at night not knowing they exist. And I think on the flip side, like, pretty open about this. I'm somebody who's not good at grieving because I'm like the guy.

37:01
John Craven
Even in situations of whatever personal tragedy where it's like, people are like, all right, what do we do? And I'm like, all right, we got to do this and do that. And again, I think the side effect of doing this stuff and being an entrepreneur is pretty darn lonely sometimes. I mean, still to this day, it's like, friends who've known me a long time, they'll be like, oh, man, that's so cool. You're going here and then you're going there. And it's. Sure, it's fun sometimes to be in different places, but it's also like, you're just glorifying what you perceive as the fun part, Right? And, yeah, I'm not trying to be bleak about it. Just trying to be real stuff is, like, it's rewarding and fun, but it comes with, again, responsibility and just challenges that you have to learn how to deal with.

37:44
John Craven
And I think that's something that it's like. I feel like every few years, as part of the cycle, there's always this founder mental health kind of thing that comes up. Like, you do have to take care of yourself. And I think that's one of those things that definitely, you know, as I get older, like, I take a lot more seriously than I probably would have 15 years ago. It's easy when you're stressed to just sit there chugging, you know, sugary drinks or eating candy kind of stuff, but you just gotta figure out your thing, right? I mean, I think that's kind of it. I suppose my calmness that you perceive is just because I think, yeah, I know how to deal with that stuff. It's not that I'm necessarily, like, always a chill person. Everyone's got their. Their moments.

38:24
John Craven
I just try to maybe keep them out of my work life.

38:26
Daniel Scharff
Those are really good points. I mean, I'm with you especially on the. Trying to prioritize more like health stuff. But also I feel like it's easier when things. When you've been doing it longer and it started to go well, so much harder to allocate that time when you're in the early critical phases and everything is make or break to take time, to really prioritize yourself. Because there's one side of that argument where people would say, you have to be balanced or else you won't do a good job of the other stuff. You make bad decisions, you'll be running too hard. There's another side to that argument. That's if you actually don't do all of the things that you need to do, you will not be successful. If you're not running harder than everybody and outworking them, you will not be successful.

39:09
John Craven
I think that part of it is really, I see it as super hard for a lot of founders to tune out now. It's. You can go on LinkedIn and there's somebody chest pounding about whatever it is. Or I mean, I've had people who are like, oh, man, I feel like when I read your site, all I see are like my competitors raising a lot more money than we have. And again, it's. You do have to put the blinders on sometimes too. It's funny, I think of someone asked me a couple years ago what were sort of like pivotal moments for you as an entrepreneur. And I'm like, man, I think, I mean, it's a long time ago, but like when we first had kids, you know, it's. Life puts the gun to your head of be efficient. You have no time for like, bs.

39:48
John Craven
Your decision tree gets so efficient because your life operates that way too. And to some extent, yeah, you just have a lot of time. Like, motivation's kind of hard. It's really strange in hindsight when your back's against the wall in life. It's. You just sometimes get better at stuff too. So keeping your head on straight is pretty tough. No, I mean, I think I'm always spend a lot of time talking to founders about this sort of stuff too. And I think I've said to you when you were starting out too, like, I feel like I've seen everything at this point. Anything that you sort of need to realistically deal with as an entrepreneur, it's just having someone to help navigate that or at least tell you, hey, you're not the only person that's dealt with this is. It's kind of helped.

40:32
John Craven
And I've had people who were there for me when I was starting out and always happened to do that for others.

40:37
Daniel Scharff
I really appreciate that. John, you have an extremely kind and helpful to me and like, made space for us. And I really appreciate that. Honestly, I do. Because you don't have to do it and a lot of people wouldn't. And I really appreciate it because, yes, this is a hard journey for any of us and it helps, but it also just feels good when we can really, like, have our friends who are helpful in the industry because we spend a lot of time and energy thinking about this stuff. And it is really nice to have people who you feel like you can play on the same team. So I really appreciate you and I would love for everyone out there listening who doesn't know John as well as I've gotten to and I really would love for you all.

41:18
Daniel Scharff
I'm sure having heard this episode, you can begin to appreciate that. But I have definitely experienced that side of John and his wife and people from BevNET and Nosh. So I was really excited to get John on the podcast today because I just wanted everyone to get a little bit of a taste of that side of him. Also, John, as we wrap up here, could you just give us a real quick rundown of like, probably a lot of people listening are like, okay, cool, I like this story, but also how do I get featured on BevNET and Nosh, all that stuff. So, like, tell me a little bit about tips for brands real quick. If they're trying to get featured, get in on opportunities, who should they be looking for? How should they try to contact them? All the good stuff.

41:51
John Craven
First and foremost, we love to interact and interface with anyone and everyone wherever you are on the journey. I think a lot of times people are like, oh, I was waiting till I was ready. Generally speaking, cpg, if you wait until you're ready, until you need something, you've waited too late. Hear that? More common with fundraising and networking. You should do that immediately. Obviously, startup CPG is a great platform for that, but I think really it's pretty simple. I mean, we're not like a pay to play platform. You can come to our events, you can buy an ad, you can subscribe. Has no bearing uncovered. I think for us it's just hit us up, send us your product. I mean, we have a lot of ways to just start getting FaceTime, both for you, the founder and the product.

42:33
John Craven
And we're really all about trying to cover, you know, products and people from all kind of walks of the industry. So I'm kind of on every social media platform. Hit me up wherever you want. My email's on our website, LinkedIn, Instagram, whatever. And most of our team is like that too. So otherwise we've got free press release, posting and stuff like that. You guys have too. I think I would just say in general, doing that stuff is great. Don't be like the boy who cried wolf sort of thing. You gotta do that strategically and carefully. But getting your product in the hands of our editors and stuff like that's a pretty good catalyst to getting included in coverage at some point. So the sooner the better, I would say.

43:16
Daniel Scharff
All right, well, get your LinkedIn inbox ready because it's coming. I can hear the thunder of brands getting ready to send you pitches and your team, so hit them all up. There are a lot of people over there doing different kinds of coverage, whether it is snacks or beverage or alcohol products. Lots of good people over there who have written. And when I was a brand, I got great coverage. I remember, yeah, Monica, who was at a previous publication, did an amazing piece on us, who now runs Nosh, and Lucas did some awesome coverage of us at a trade show once. So really appreciate that. It means a lot. Not just for the actual coverage, but then also being able to showcase that to people means a lot for brands. So thank you, John.

43:58
Daniel Scharff
This was very fun for me because I actually haven't heard most of that story before. Even though you and I get to chat, especially around the shows and events and everything, it would have been hard to actually create the time to hear all of that in all of these hectic environments. So this was just an excuse to get to hear that whole story. So thank you very much.

44:18
John Craven
Well, thank you, Daniel. Appreciate it. Absolutely.

44:20
Daniel Scharff
All right, everybody. Hope you enjoyed as much as I did. Well, my friends, we've now arrived together at the end of another episode of the Startup CPG podcast, the top globally ranked podcast in cpg. As you may know, we're not just a podcast. We're a community of brands and experts and you should join. You can sign up @startupcpg.com you'll then get an invite to our online Slack community. You're going to hear about amazing events near you, all of our special opportunities to get you in front of buyers, investors, brands and more. It's a free community. So what are you waiting for? I will see you there or on our next episode. Bye bye!