The Startup CPG Podcast

Vanessa White
So our story is very grassroots. We started Jaju Pierogi because we always have pierogi in our freezer. Growing up, our grandfather, our Jaju, had a deli with his siblings and it wasn't like we had no Mac and cheese or anything like that. It was like, if you're hungry, throw the pierogi in the pan and fry them up. And so we started connecting the dots so that there wasn't like a high quality pierogi in the freezer section. So we had like corporate jobs and everything and were like, let's figure this out and test this out. So we started doing it part time. So in 2017, went full time. I would say between 2017 and beginning of 2020, we like really hustled to build a brand through events. So we did like ton of farmers markets.

00:50
Vanessa White
We started doing pop ups at breweries and music festivals and cultural festivals. So I say, like, if there's any luck involved in our business, it's that we started at the same time that there was like the huge brewery craze.

01:06
Daniel Scharff
Hello, CPG ers. This episode is just a great hang. I was super excited to interview Vanessa White of Jaju Pierogi. She's had some social media reels go viral and I was really interested to talk to her for a retrospective of how and why that happened and what was the insight or feeling that her videos tapped into to get that kind of virality along the way, I was super interested just to learn more about pierogies, also known as polish dumplings, and how Vanessa and her team grew the business from farmers markets and small events in Massachusetts, all the way to getting national distribution with sprouts and soon to be Whole Foods launching nationally this May. I hope you aren't already hungry. You are going to be dying for a pierogi by the end of this interview. Enjoy. Hello. Welcome to the startup CPG podcast.

01:53
Daniel Scharff
Today's guest is Vanessa White. Vanessa is the CEO of Jaju Pierogi. Those are frozen polish style dumplings sold in 2000 stores nationwide, including sprouts. She has a particularly strong skillset in social media. Maybe you've even seen one of her viral pierogi videos already. We are so excited to hear about her brand journey and some of her tips for how your brand can go viral. Welcome, Vanessa. It's so nice to have you here.

02:18
Vanessa White
Thank you. Hey, that's putting a lot of pressure on me to give everyone the secret to going viral, but I can certainly give some insight into how I think. For sure.

02:26
Daniel Scharff
Vanessa is definitely about to give you the secret sauce for going viral. 100% guaranteed, maybe not guaranteed.

02:34
Vanessa White
Yes, 100%. Exactly. Money back guarantee.

02:38
Daniel Scharff
All right. And I actually got to see Vanessa not too long ago because were both in Las Vegas for fancy foods, and we ended up going to the sphere, which is that crazy dome with all of the light panels all around it that you've seen, like, advertising for the Super bowl and stuff. And we actually got a little group together and got to go see a movie there. Right.

02:58
Vanessa White
Yeah, that was. I'm happy I got that experience. I don't know that I would pay $100 to see a movie again at the sphere, but it was definitely worth it for the experience.

03:08
Daniel Scharff
It was cool, though. You could just basically, like, look around. Not quite 360, but, like, it just sort of felt like you were outside. Basically that because it had just so much of your visual plane covered with stuff. So that was a good time. I'm glad we made it happen when were in Vegas. I hear that place is just losing a ton of money, so who knows if it'll be around forever. It's good to have done it.

03:29
Vanessa White
Yeah, I don't know. I think that because the Grateful Dead is playing after u two, I started hearing. I don't know, but I feel like they've had trouble booking artists because it's so expensive to, like, actually produce the show there, so. Yeah, Tbd.

03:42
Daniel Scharff
Oh, yeah. Dead and company I saw, announced a bunch of shows. If I could go and see, like, them or you two, man. I mean, what an experience. But it was funny because, like, I think we all got a little vertigo just because of how steep the seats are there. It was a little funny to see people, like, walking out, holding onto each other.

03:59
Vanessa White
It's like a weird fear of heights thing a little bit, because you feel like you can, like, fall into the canyon of, like, the movie screen kind of thing.

04:06
Daniel Scharff
That is what it feels like. All right. But we did not come here just to talk about things to do in Vegas. Let's get into it. So, just to begin, do you mind just telling me a little story about how you got into this wonderful CPG industry?

04:19
Vanessa White
Absolutely. So I think it's an interesting story because I have recognized, as we've gone further along in CPG, how different businesses come at this and how they arrive where they are. So our story is very grassroots. We started Jaju Pierogi because we always had pierogi in our freezer. Growing up, our grandfather, our Jaju, had a deli with his siblings, and it wasn't like we had no Mac and cheese or anything like that. It was like, if you're hungry, throw the perogee in the pan and fry them up. So going to college and having our first roommates, we still had our mom would, like, stop at the store and drive through and drop them off at college at our apartments, and people started to ask us where we got them.

04:59
Vanessa White
And so we started connecting the dots that there wasn't, like, a high quality pierogi in the freezer section. So we had, like, corporate jobs and everything, and were like, let's figure this out and test this out. So we started doing it part time. We, like, perfected our grandfather's recipes on my kitchen table and then got permitted in the back of a deli and started doing farmers markets in 2016, like, part time. And then it got too much. I always say, like, too much to do part time, too little to do full time. There's, like, this weird middle ground where you, like, can't really do it at night while you're trying to, like, be a customer success manager for a tech company anymore.

05:33
Vanessa White
But then you also, like, aren't gonna make a ton of money, so you have to still have a bunch of side hustles. So in 2017, went full time. I would say between 2017 and beginning of 2020, we, like, really hustled to build a brand through events. So we did, like, a ton of farmers markets. We started doing pop ups at breweries and music festivals and cultural festivals. So if I say, like, if there's any luck involved in our business, it's that we started at the same time. But there was, like, the huge brewery craze. So, like, everyone locally was like, oh, my God, I love, like, this new brewery's opening, and, like, I have to get down there, and there were lines and that people were crazy about food trucks and pop ups and things like that.

06:13
Vanessa White
So we would go to these breweries and, like, sell out. It would be packed. And so it was just, like, a great way to kind of get people in New England to get to know about our business. And at the same time, we started, like, going to stores and, like, dropping off samples and following up, and we had them. We were selling them in, like, clamshells with, like, cardboard wraparounds, like, very grassroots. And then, like, 2018, we switched to our pouch that we have now and 2020, were like, all right, we gotta make the shift like it was before COVID even happened.

06:42
Vanessa White
Our goal was always to be, like, a grocery brand, but we just got stuck in, like, this retail, like, direct to consumer event kind of rut, I would say were a seasonal business, like a summer business, which is wild because pierogi are a cold weather food. But were making most of our money in the summer through all these events. So 2020 came and like, obviously was the big kick in the pants that we needed to basically flip our business on its head. And that had been our goal. But obviously, like, demand for frozen went crazy over COVID. So it taught us how to scale. And we also delivered like 2000 meal kits throughout New England as well with like, frozen pierogi, kielbasa, and like, sauerkraut. Sauerkraut, mustard, horseradish. So that was a great branding exercise.

07:25
Vanessa White
And then from that confidence during, like, the time of COVID we started pursuing larger distributor partnerships, like associated grocers in the northeast, bosouttos in the northeast. And then after that, I think our first unfi account was Hannaford. And they put us in 35 stores. And then we've kind of been gradually growing from there. Now we're about 2000 stores, like Harris Teeter, fresh Market, whole Foods, North Atlantic, big y moms routes, obviously. So yeah, there's just a lot of activity, but it's been very grassroots. We don't have any brokers or anything.

07:58
Daniel Scharff
And you have some big news about a new retailer expansion, right?

08:03
Vanessa White
Yeah. So were part of the Leap program with Whole Foods, the local emerging accelerator program. And we actually just did that this past year. They put us in stores in New England off cycle in November. And then they told us around Christmas, the best Christmas present, that we're going national in May. So Jaju Pierogi will be nationwide in Whole Foods for sure in June, gradually in May. So very excited about that. And that the partnership, they've been awesome.

08:30
Daniel Scharff
That's amazing. Congratulations. All right.

08:33
Vanessa White
I'm figuring out that nationwide demo program, like, that's my biggest stressor right now, but it's okay.

08:39
Daniel Scharff
Okay, cool. And well, you can definitely use our partners grassroots that we're just about to launch our demo partnership with. They're awesome. I've worked with them. They're the preferred demo agency for Erewhon. So David and Bridget are awesome. Okay. Just kind of rewinding for everybody. What's a pierogi? Because it's funny that you mentioned college because that was the first time I actually ever heard of a pierogi. I went to college in the midwest. Like, I'm from Chevy Chase, Maryland. I don't know, it's like insular or something, but I had never heard of or had a pierogi until I went to Kenyon College in Ohio. And then it was just on the lunch menu, and I was like, this is amazing. What is this stuff? And everybody else was really into it, knew about it. I just happened not to have.

09:19
Daniel Scharff
So what is a pierogi? And, like, how come I didn't know what that was like? How many people are like me? How many people just kind of had it growing up?

09:26
Vanessa White
Yeah, absolutely. So there are pockets of polish people all over the United States. I call them, like, well, now it's like, second or third generation. And then I say there's a lot of closet polish people all over the United States as well, which is people who are from, like, the northeast or the midwest, and they've moved elsewhere, like, to the Carolinas, or they're now snowbirds. So there's a lot of us. But I wouldn't say there's not, like, a tremendous number of, like, recent immigrants that are coming. So pierogi are polish, eastern european origin. There's a bunch of cousins of pierogi around eastern Europe. So there's, like, Pylmani and then there's varaneki in Ukraine. So you might have heard of some of these other variations. Pierogi, I think, is the most well known one.

10:08
Vanessa White
And as to your point, it's like, if you go anywhere, Greenpoint in Brooklyn is, like, very polish, historically, anywhere in Pennsylvania, Ohio in Midwest, pretty much. Chicago has the largest polish population outside of Warsaw. So there's a lot of polish restaurants there as well. But we found that, like, for the rest of the country, it's just people who write to us all the time. They're like, I can't get a good pierogi out here in, like, la or in Seattle or something like that. So there's a desire for it, like a nostalgic pull towards it. I say, like, our dough is like an egg pasta dough. The most traditional stuffings are, like, potato and cheese or potato and onion or a sauerkraut or a cabbage, just like those hearty eastern european flavors. We are trying to make them.

10:53
Vanessa White
So kind of to your point, like, I have to get the data. It's something that's on my list to do, but to kind of understand what the percentage of households are right now that are buying pierogi, which is probably, like 10% or less. And so there's so much room to educate people on what they are because they're just. Every culture has their dumpling, right? So, like, people are eating empanadas people are eating ravioli. Like, there's a lot of things that are more commonplace. Like, pierogi are so family friendly and convenient that there's a lot of room to educate people on what they are.

11:26
Daniel Scharff
So I saw in your packaging, it says, obviously Pierogi in big font, and then down below and kind of where the statement of identity would be on packaging, it says polish dumplings. Right? So it sounds like this is new information for me. But they're like, maybe then dumplings is, like, a class of products. And then you have polish dumplings, pierogies, and then you would have lots of different kinds of dumplings that you're mentioning.

11:47
Vanessa White
Yeah. So it's. I've actually thought a lot about this, too, that dumplings a lot of times is used to refer to, like, asian dumplings. And then there's, like, dumpling fests. And I'm like, what the heck? It's only asian dumplings, but there's, like, think about it. Like samosa, like empanadas, momos, khomeini, vernicki. You know, all the. There's the all italian stuffed pastas. Like, there's so many dumpling, like, different stuffed types of food, and they're all dumplings, right? I did this whole research recently about how these all evolved, and they originated in, like, central Asia, and actually from there went to China and southeast Asia and then kind of traveled back through the silk road. And so that's how, like, a lot of tortellini or ravioli or pilmeni or pierogi all evolves is through trade and everything. So they're kind of all related.

12:42
Daniel Scharff
That's an education for me. I did not know a lot about any kind of dumpling, to be honest. Unfortunately. I think I'm more familiar with. I don't know what Panda Express has than what real, authentic food is like, unfortunately. But then I remember even the first time I had soup dumplings, like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. Yeah. I don't know why that's been, like, all adult discoveries for me, but if you do go to dumpling fest, definitely invite me, please. I would like to have all of the different kinds of dumplings, and I think probably a lot of other listeners would like to join in for that, too, maybe.

13:18
Vanessa White
Who doesn't love dumplings? And it's, like, the ultimate comfort food.

13:22
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, that sounds lovely. So, okay. Really cool way to think about it. And then can you just talk to me about, like, you for sure, have talked to thousands of people, probably, who share some of your cultural heritage. Who they're polish or they identify as polish or just, you know, are really proud of that heritage. What is it about perogi? What do pierogies mean to them? And what part of the history does that bring up for them?

13:45
Vanessa White
Absolutely. So I think pierogi are nostalgic food for people because, yes, they family recipe, but also I find a lot of stories like polish cuisine and east european cuisine is not talked about enough. And then people come to us too, and they're like, my ex girlfriend was polish and her mom used to bring these over. So there's like a lot of nostalgic connections across the board. Like you had them in college, people grew up in polish areas. Maybe they were italian, but the family next door, their grandmother used to make them. Like, there's just, it's just nostalgia all around. But I think just like, it actually crosses cultures. If you think about the pierogi is the example for us. But also, like, there's plenty of other things, like stuffed cabbage rolls, guamki. There's other things.

14:30
Vanessa White
But in italian cuisine, it might be like the nonna's like pasta sauce, right? And the. Or it kind of bridges all kinds of cuisines that a family had a recipe and they're all different. Let's be very clear. Just like people argue about pasta sauce, people argue about the right way to make pierogi as well. But they all have their recipe. And then it was like a pinch of this, a feel of that, of this. And there wasn't written down right or the elder that had, it was like, oh, like, leave me alone. Like, I'll tell you someday. And then they never told them. So what we hear all the time is like, oh, my God, I haven't had pierogi like this since my grandmother made them or my mother made them or whoever.

15:11
Vanessa White
And I, they don't have a recipe or it's a lot of work or they can't get it right. And there's just a lot of, like that's missing from the market because you just have like a misses tease who it serves a purpose but does not have like the quality of ingredients that babshi, which is grandmother took used. So that's kind of where we come into play. So there's just like these really nostalgic stories. Like people have told us. We've made them cry in a good way. Like, they bite into them and it's like, oh, my gosh, this is just like my grandmother. So just like a tradition and a thing. Like around Christmas time, people get into assembly lines and they roll out the dough and they pinch, and it's just like a really warm memory for people.

15:50
Daniel Scharff
Okay, I'm super interested to know more about this. One, because dumplings and pierogies are all delicious, but two, just because, you know, I've seen how your social media clips have gone viral in a bunch of instances, and I'm just trying to understand why that is, like, what is it that it's tapping into? So it'll be. So we'll come back to that in a little bit when we talk about social media strategy. And then, so when you're going into stores, you mentioned, like, the household penetration is not super high for pierogies. When you're pitching stores, are you trying to displace big pierogi? Like, are there incumbent competitors on the set or are you maybe the only option and you're pitching a story about incrementality. What's it like?

16:31
Vanessa White
Yeah, so I would say that I've concluded that we can coexist with misses T's right on the shelf because they're like a 399 for a dozen and we're like a $10 for a dozen. And so you're talking about two different customers and, or like, the customer that has kind of reluctantly bought misses tease for years is going to be like, oh, my God, another option. And, like, be willing to reach for it and pay for the difference so we can kind of coexist. I would say, like our biggest competitor who isn't like as widely distributed as misses teas, but does pop up here and there is probably Kasia's, which is Ksia.

17:06
Vanessa White
They are kind of like a middle road between us and misses T's still not the same taste or ingredient profile, but it's kind of like a 799 price point versus ours is like a 999 or depending like 1099. So people are like, if they're going to pay more, that's kind of like our main competitor, but we don't run into that in that many places. So I would say, like, the biggest hurdle for us is really that price point and having someone understand that people are tired of the cardboard taste. And like, again, people say, like, misses T is made a place for pierogi on the shelf. So we have to be grateful for them for like, introducing the world to what these things are. But I think it is.

17:48
Vanessa White
It can be tough because you have to really demonstrate and justify the difference in that it's two different products and it's not trying to displace them it's just offering an alternative.

17:59
Daniel Scharff
All right, so shot fired. Vanessa from Jaju just is taking on Miss teas big Pierogi conglomerate and saying they taste like cardboard.

18:10
Vanessa White
I honestly aspire to have a relationship with misses teas, like Wendy's and Burger King on social media. Like, I aspire to that. If one day they take a shot at me, I will be so excited because then we can go back and forth.

18:25
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. I think the pr playbook for them will always be to say who, if they ever get asked about you. Right? I've never heard of them. Are they in stores? Yes. That's a, that's a very good call. I like it. And so is, so you mentioned, like, you know, if someone came to visit you at, you know, college, they might stop by the store and pick up pierogies. Is that what they were doing? They were buying miss teas or something like that? Or were they making it from scratch?

18:47
Vanessa White
Yeah. So what happened in the college and, like, right out of college is that our. So our mom was going to our family deli. So, like, we had this I in middle school, like, worked there and helped make the, all the products and Pierogi and kielbasa and Guamke and everything like that for like dollar 40 on a Saturday, you know, with my grandfather. So my mom was still going to that store and she was stopping. She was like, do you want anything at the store? Like, I'm coming through. And so we would always put it in our Pierogi order because who doesn't want Pierogi in the freezer in college, obviously. And so, like, our friends roommates, whatever, they were definitely buying the ones misses tease or Trader Joe's or something like that.

19:25
Vanessa White
And they were like, oh, my gosh, like, how can I get these? And it, like, looking back in my childhood, it was like a constant theme where my mom would just, wherever we go to a party or we would go somewhere, she would just like, bring a cooler of perogi and kielbasa from our family store and be like, here's the gifts. And it's funny because now today, she just, that's like, my mom's love language is buying our Pierogi off the shelf and, like, gifting them to everybody.

19:50
Daniel Scharff
My mom would do that too.

19:52
Vanessa White
Yeah. So I think she single handedly drives velocity at like, the Yarmouth Fort shop and shop on Cape Cod. But, yeah, so that's kind of like people just were buying and these kind of mainstream options because there's only a couple delis in the Boston area that make them and have, like, they make them just for the retail spot or they sell them just there. So there weren't options widely available at all.

20:15
Daniel Scharff
So when you're demoing and, you know, getting people to buy product and sampling and they try it, they like it. Like, how many of them have that kind of association already? Like, oh, yeah, I've had these before. You know, my girlfriend's family is polish or something like that, versus people just being like, oh, yeah. Like, I haven't really had these before. Oh, that's good. And these are easy to make. Great. I'll buy some.

20:36
Vanessa White
I would say it's like 50. But as I've talked to more brands about, like, their demo experiences, I will say that, like, our demo experience is very lively and positive. Like, we're literally frying this pierogi and butter on a griddle in whole foods. So, like, people walk in the door and they're like, what's that smell? Like? It's just butter. But people, it attracts people. And a lot of times when we do demos, literally, I can't keep, I mean, I can hardly keep up with all the interests of people. And so I joke that, like, I have not yet done a four hour demo because I usually can sell off the shelf in 2 hours with, and we're frozen, too. So, like, obviously they can't bring in a million bags, but, like, I've got people from all backgrounds that they bite into.

21:20
Vanessa White
I always joke, like, the jalapeno cheddar goes first when I demo because people bite into it and they're like, you see this, like, look on their face, like, whoa. And then they come back and they're like, where do I get these? And they're just at this, like, look on their face, like, I need more of this. And so then you walk them over. So it's like 50. But I, what I like most about doing the demos is the people that are the 50% who have never had them, and they're like, sure. And you see this, like, kind of, like, neutral agreement to try your product, and then they come back around the corner and they're like, wait a minute, I need that in my life.

21:54
Daniel Scharff
All right, well, I'm very excited for my samples coming. Then I'm definitely going to start with the jalapeno cheddar ones. So when you're talking to, like, early retailers or when you started getting, you know, stop and shop and those kind of, you know, next level buyers, are they already kind of sold on this idea of, okay, yes, the premiumization now is coming for the pierogi category or do you really have to explain it to them? And, like, are they really looking at, hey, how much of our shopper base has polish roots or would be interested in this stuff like that? Or, you know, was it really hard? Was it easy?

22:31
Vanessa White
I think it really depends on the retailer and I think that probably goes for every product that gets sold into a retailer. But, like, Whole Foods was very much like, we don't have a national pierogi and that's disgraceful. Like, they said that, you know, like, they're like, we need a national pierogi. And so they were very focused on, like, that wasn't a hole in their offering. Like a big y, which is near us. They are focused in like a historically polish area with, between like central and western mass and Connecticut. So big Y has like a pierogi door. Like they have like four or five options in there. So that's like another end of the spectrum. Then there's retailers like moms where they just carry us.

23:15
Vanessa White
Like, I think there's some retailers that know they have to have a pierogi option, but they're maybe like a mom's isn't going to carry misses t's. So there you go. So that we're the option there. So it kind of varies in terms of the reasoning. I would say, like, stop and shop has definitely been one of the most difficult accounts because they're very conventional and like, we kind of went in there being like we're a local. Like, we have a good brand recognition in our backyard through all of the events. But for example, like, stop and shop, they didn't put us with misses teas. They, which is a potato section for stop and shop and they put us with the pasta.

23:53
Vanessa White
So if someone, like, a lot of our sales are brand discovery because like I said, you know, people have been buying misses teas for years and they want something different. So it's hard because people will go into shop and shop knowing that we're in there and say, oh, I couldn't find you. Like, well, I know you probably looked at the perogee section, even though I've tried my hardest to message this online and you actually have to go to the eggplant farm. Yeah. So it really depends on the retailer. But, like, the other joke I always make is like, if you get a buyer that has like a ski or it's, or a chick last name, I'm like, sweet. I got someone on my side already because they're going to be a pierogi connoisseur.

24:32
Daniel Scharff
So that's amazing. I can imagine. And I mean, it's cool thinking about, like, just what are all those opportunities where there is, I mean, a lot of people who are interested in a product line and they just can't get it if they're shopping at the more natural retailers who just don't have an option like that. I would go nuts with that story. Just going to, like the whole foods of the worlds and being like, look, here's the data. Like, trying to educate them on, here's what's happening to your shoppers. Like, because I would guess that pierogies could be like a trip driver. Like, oh, I want to make pierogies and I'm going to go to the store to get them. And if they go there and they don't have it, they are going to take their business to another store.

25:05
Daniel Scharff
And I'm sure some of this Pfizer data, like leaky bucket type stuff could actually show them what they're missing because they don't have that option. I imagine you're leveraging that really well to get a lot of good conversations.

25:17
Vanessa White
I would say that, like, because of our come up and how we got into this and just like, it was a lot of elbow grease and ours worked and personality and, like, entertainers and good story and really good product, we, that's something that's we need to work on. I would say in the next year, we actually were in production making Pierogi until a year ago. Like, I was literally washing dishes. This last year has been a change in a great way, but we've been able to start being more strategic. I should say that I do the marketing and sales for Jaju and my sister does the finance and operations and she's like, really the data junkie. And I'm kind of the one that, like, smiles and shakes hands. So we do need to get better about the data.

25:58
Vanessa White
But anecdotally, it is 100% what you're saying. And I do kind of pitch that way that's like, people will drive for good Pierogi. Like, I hear that all the time from customers, especially on social media. Like, oh, I'm driving there this weekend, or we get emails, like, we're taking a road trip from Connecticut to Maine and we're going to stop in all the stores to try to find this flavor and it's like, okay, so, yeah, amazing.

26:21
Daniel Scharff
All right, so what was that process like of making it yourself? Are you glad that you did it that way? Until you switched or do you wish you had maybe found a manufacturing partner before that?

26:32
Vanessa White
I think we just had, like, our own journey to, like, arrive at where we did. Because I think when you're waking the product, you're understanding all the little things you can do to, like, make it better or make it more efficient, and you stay close to the product quality, and the product quality is our selling point, I think. I wouldn't change what we did. We were making them by hand through, I would say, 2018. We used to stand four girls around a table and, like, laugh so hard all day long and just make like, 1000 perogee by hand, just, like, telling stories. And that was an amazing memory. A lot of, like, were hand boiling our Pierogi even through, like, a Hanover's launch. So it's like 24 hours shifts. Like, literally, like, okay, I'll be there from 11:00 p.m.

27:20
Vanessa White
To 05:00 a.m., like, crazy stories that I wouldn't trade for anything. And I think, like, we kind of went through this path of, like, do we want to move to another facility, raise money, build it out? Like, trying to find space was really hard in a lot of metro areas. I'm sure it's the same thing as happening where in Boston, like, any industrial space is like, ooh, condo building. Like, so there's not, like, a lot of motivation for people to rent it at an industrial rate. So we just struggled with that. And then on the same timeline, we had these mentors in the business that had a larger facility, and they made, like, stuffed foods, like egg rolls, dumplings, empanadas, things like that. And I actually, they purchased the same machinery that we had. I trained them on it, which was great.

28:07
Vanessa White
And so then, like, down the line, we said, oh, we want to start making a kielbasa pierogi and bring it to market, but we don't have a USDA facility. They do. Let's test it out there and see if they can make it. And then we're like, okay, well, like, if they can do that, let's try other flavors. And then it was late 2022. It's like, we landed sprouts or, sorry, we landed stop and shop QFC. And then shortly after, it was like, sprouts. And, like, the volume that was coming in, were working six days a week at the co packer plus, like, five full days a week at our current existing facility just to hit all the production numbers.

28:45
Vanessa White
And it just, like, forced us to learn all the lessons really quickly with the co packer and be like, oh, okay, I guess we could do this. I guess we can do this now and, like, move it over. And it's local. It's like an hour from me and a half an hour for myself, sister. And so our production manager, who ran our equipment in our facility, is actually running our line at the co packer. So it was like a nice transition to making sure we still have that quality, but having access to, like, all of the equipment and the infrastructure that we needed.

29:13
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, thanks for sharing all of that. So I'd love to just dig into a little bit a topic I know you know a lot about, which is your social media strategy. I've loved seeing a bunch of your videos, just, you know, really very clever and fun videos, I think, you know, showing off your personality and just very food focused and, you know, just, like, showing pierogies and ways of cooking and really interesting stuff. And I also, I scrolled all the way back on your TikTok page just because I am so interested in that evolution of, like, what did it look like those first couple days, weeks, months when you were posting? And, you know, were there signs that, like, yeah, keep at it. Like, keep putting tons of effort into this.

29:51
Daniel Scharff
This is going to grow eventually and become a big part of your strategy. So can you just talk about, like, yeah, the evolution of it? So thinking all the way back to when you started posting and what did you start learning and what were the insights of, like, oh, that hit, like, yeah, I'll lean into that more.

30:07
Vanessa White
Absolutely. So I would say that, I mean, I, when my sister and I started this business, we kind of, there were a couple things that we overlapped on, and then there were things that we did not. So, like, from the very start, I was the marketing person and she was the money person, and then we kind of overlapped on operations and stuff like that for a while and sales as well. And so obviously, like, when we started Instagram, Facebook were, like, a whole different creature where it was just, like, still photos and you could get away with a lot less. Like, not, like, get away with, but, you know, like, you could post, like, flavor photos or you could post, like, pictures of you and it would get, like, a good reaction.

30:46
Vanessa White
And so I think back at that point, my sister and I have always been the brand. Like, we have no problem being the brand because their story is key to the brand. So I think that's, like, one thing that I would say to entrepreneurs is just, like, identify. It's really good to have a face to the brand, because then people feel connected. If you're comfortable being that person, it's just people like cheerleading. That's one thing they like to do. They like to cheerlead. It can't always be you and always be you, but like, it's good to rotate yourself in. So that was kind of like that phase. Then of course, we entered like the real and the TikTok and everything phase, which, I'll be honest, I think I was, like, super overwhelmed about when it first happened.

31:30
Vanessa White
But I think especially when we really started winding down on events because we, like I said, up until like 2020, and even in 2020, were doing so many of those meal kit deliveries, like, I call it, like it was informational marketing versus content for the sake of content. So there's two different types of kind of feeds. So informational marketing, were like, we're going to be here this weekend. We have these flavors. Like, it was very just telling people what was happening. When we started moving more towards wholesale and away from the events, I was like, oh my gosh, I just have to create content for the sake of content. Like, I have to start creating videos to just talk about Pierogi and like, why and how and whatever. And so that was like a little intimidating.

32:19
Vanessa White
But I would say I've really hit my stride this past year and kind of cracked a little bit of the code. And I've also started consulting on the side and I work with small businesses. I have about five clients that I help generate content for them as well. And so what I tell people is like, everyone's social media, my personal social media, yours is our own personal brand page, right? And so it's all, everything you share, everything you post is a reflection of you. So as a brand, what you need to do is create content that people are going to be able to express themselves through. And so then they share it and they're like, haha, this is me. Or like, I, oh my God, can you believe this? Or whatever.

33:04
Vanessa White
So you just have to create the content that they see themselves in, right? So that's been my whole brand vibe on social media is like, whether it's sometimes I'll post stuff about being a small business owner, which can be relatable to people, but a lot of it, I'm really leaning into the polish american culture because going back to what were talking about, there's a huge nostalgic connection to Pierogi and to polish food and, like, identifying yourself with that. And so I've really leaned into that and just, I'm always thinking like, would someone share this? Like, I have to say I've made some mistakes in not branding certain things. Like my Halloween pierogi trick or treat posts went like crazy viral and got stolen by a million people and put on a million meme pages.

33:51
Vanessa White
It was like a bucket of pierogi and it was like, please take one. The peak was, I think the New Jersey Devils took it and it photo cropped. Like photoshopped it and like put something in it and they were like. And I was like, that's my doorstep. Thank you. So I've gotten smarter with always having a bag in the background or if I do like a still photo, I kind of like blend the jaju bags into the background because I've had a lot of other Pierogi businesses take my stuff and like crop out my logo or things like that. And I'm like, guys, which is like, the Internet's gonna Internet, right? But I'm like, not entertained. I don't do your marketing. I can do my marketing. So anyway, that's the story.

34:34
Daniel Scharff
You can totally see how that could happen where, I mean, I'm not an expert on social media, but what I know is, oh, when there are popular memes out there, like, you can do the meme and apply it to your business and probably that's what they're thinking. Not like, oh, this person actually spent a lot of time creating this very authentic and clever content and maybe I shouldn't just steal that for my competitive business.

34:56
Vanessa White
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I did like one of the most recent ones. This is my last lesson learned was the pierogi. And a Stanley is like what we use our stanleys for. And it was like, I like unscrewed the Stanley cover and pierogi in it and I took like, the reel is harder to steal so people don't really steal the reel, but it's the still photo that goes on Facebook. So I put our logo in the bottom right corner and then the store in New York cropped it out and put it on their page and got like, I had like 6000 likes or something like that. And they were getting like tens of thousands. I kid you not, Daniel. I called that store, I was like, hi, can I speak to person who runs your facebook?

35:33
Vanessa White
And I was like, you got to take this down. I was like, I don't, this is not cool that you cropped this out because I was like, don't take other people's content. And they did. They took it down. But I was like, I don't work for you.

35:44
Daniel Scharff
I hope you got an order out of them, too.

35:46
Vanessa White
I did it. I didn't, but it's okay. I don't want anyone else's pierogi. I want my pierogi. It's okay.

35:52
Daniel Scharff
Oh, no, I meant them carrying your product.

35:54
Vanessa White
Oh, yeah. No, no, they made their own. That's what they were advertising. You know, at the end of the day, it's just about, like. I also think that people go for shock factor, too. So you see, like, I do. Like, my recent one was, like, dipping pierogi and fondue because I. It's at least school vacation. Wake up here in Massachusetts. So a lot of people are skiing. So I was like, okay, ski. Put the ski in the. In a fre, like the polish last name ski. I did a polish trifle where I layered, like, pierogi, sour cream, kielbasa, chives, onion, sauerkraut. Like, twice. I got a lot of Rachel from friends comments on that one because I care. I guess Rachel and friends made, like, a terrible trifle. Not a friends person, myself. The thing that. The only thing I will say is.

36:41
Daniel Scharff
Like, I think it was a dessert layer that also had, like, sour cream or something. Oh, yeah. Something crazy.

36:47
Vanessa White
Yeah, yeah. Beef and peas. So people were like, Rachel, question mark. Question mark. The only thing I will say about going viral that's, like, really a hard thing to come to terms with because now we've had probably six or eight or so, maybe, like, multi million views, is that people are really mean.

37:05
Daniel Scharff
People are horrible. I know this about the Internet. People are the worst, just, like, no matter what you do. And honestly, it makes me so scared to, like, our instagram is over 20k, which for b two b is something that's really exciting for us, gives us a great chance to feature brands and do a lot of cool stuff. But 100% of the time, if we have a reel that goes viral, if we're, like, promoting a post or something, some jerk from the Internet will just come on and try to ruin your day. And if it's, like, a woman on there, they'll be like, looks like a dude. Or if it's, like you, they'll just be like, what an embarrassing person. Like, they should die.

37:44
Vanessa White
Oh, it's terrible. It's terrible. So I've taken the approach that if you troll me, I'm going to troll you back.

37:50
Daniel Scharff
Zachary, how's that working out? Because I'm really tempted to do that, but I'm just like, it's not worth my time. I also have seen other people who, like Allie Bonar, I've seen on her instagram. She'll just respond to all of the haters with, thanks for boosting my engagement.

38:05
Vanessa White
Yeah. So I try to kill him with kindness slash sarcasm a little bit. And so a lot of my responses, I mean, sometimes I respond honestly where someone, like, on my trifle, it's like, oh, a bunch of processed food. And it's like, no, actually, none of this is processed. It's literally like anything you would eat with pierogi on its own. Sour cream, chives, sauteed onions. We cooked ourselves. Like, the pierogi are ours. Like, there's nothing in here that's junk. Like, I respond very, like, honestly to things. And then other times, like, this is like, we shared one of our grandfather's recipes, which was pineapple and cheese, which is, like, not traditional. And I literally say that in the real.

38:43
Vanessa White
And someone, like, multiple people have come on that reel and told me that my grandfather should be ashamed of himself as calling him a polish person, call himself polish, and, like, no self respecting polish person. So I go, I just reply back, and I'm like, I really hope that no one comes and insults your family that you that doesn't even know you on the Internet. Like, whatever. But then a lot of times, I get, like, even more playful.

39:05
Daniel Scharff
But don't you kind of hope someone does?

39:08
Vanessa White
Yeah, I do. Right? But I think. And sometimes if they're really mean, I put them on blasts on our story, and I'm like, everyone, send them a hug. Send Anna a hug today, everybody.

39:17
Daniel Scharff
Oh, that's so sweet.

39:19
Vanessa White
And then all of our. I call them the Pierogi hive. Like, go into the comments and are like, anna, do you need to talk to someone today? Like, please let me know. And it's so funny. They, like, talk to these people like they're a toddler, so we kind of have fun with it. But some people who keep going, like, some people keep being terrible, I go, mm. And I block them because it's like, you're not my customer. You're starting to insult other people who are my followers. It's like, no, no.

39:48
Daniel Scharff
Mainly, I just block people who fool about at all, which is not satisfying. It's way more satisfying to, like, try to go onto their page. If they say something, like, really out of place. Like, okay, I bet I can see who you work for. For. Maybe I'll tag them. Like, come get your boy. From our comments, there was.

40:05
Vanessa White
Yeah, right? There was a girl who, like, made some comment, and I went on her profile, and she just was quoting Taylor Swift. Like, hi, I'm the problem. It's me. So I just was like, just like Jessica said, she's the problem. It's her. And, like, I just kind of. I show, like, you're on the Internet, are putting yourself out there, and I will pick on you if you pick on me. Like, not in, like, a mean way, not in, like, a over the top way, but, like, I'll play back, you know? But it does boost engagement, so it's okay.

40:32
Daniel Scharff
Okay. I just wanted to, like, make myself some pierogies and just sit and watch that and snack on some pierogies and watch the comments. Recently on our startup CBG, one of our reels got a lot of views and comments.

40:44
Vanessa White
Was that the one about the sliding fee?

40:47
Daniel Scharff
Yes, it was.

40:47
Vanessa White
Yeah.

40:50
Daniel Scharff
It's really good. If anybody wants to check it out on our instagram, it was just like, two guys losing their s, laughing, basically. And it was when Safeway nor Cal tries to get you for a store, per sku slotting. And it was pretty funny. And then, yeah, a lot of people commenting on that one, like, you know, got a couple thousand reactions, and then two guys just going at it in the comments. It's actually not about us. It's just them insulting each other.

41:17
Vanessa White
I know.

41:18
Daniel Scharff
Just, like, I don't know if I should step in here, but I guess it does boost our engagement. I don't know. I mean, like, they didn't really say anything over the line. That's just, like, what's happening here.

41:26
Vanessa White
Yeah. It's just knowing the game at the end of the day. And, like, I do feel, you know, Instagram or meta and TikTok serve people things that they think will be interesting to them. So if there's a reel that's getting a lot of engagement, even if it's people yelling at each other about how much sour cream is being used, there's something Tom like, yep. Like, have at it, you know? And like I said, I really only, like, block people who are absolutely, like, their purpose in life is to troll us and literally go through our grid and start. I'm like, okay, yeah.

41:59
Daniel Scharff
By the way, I think we can all agree. Like, we've all had these thoughts. We've all seen a post been like, that's stupid, or, that's not right. But, like, you know, we don't go and actually post. Like, what is it that drives a person to actually go and post that comment? Like, what's the outcome that they want from this, like, oh, maybe, okay. They responded and they're like, yeah, you're totally right. We'll take down our entire business because you had some random, like, video gamer from the Internet took time away from, like, twitching and talking smack to come and talk smack. Personally on our page.

42:27
Vanessa White
I mean, we get so many comments about how we spell our brand name, right? Because I could go into this, too. So Jaju J A J U is the phonetic spelling of an affectionate way of saying grandfather. So in polish, it would be Dzia d ziu. And so we get everyone who has a master's degree or a PhD internet marketing, whatever that is coming, or social media comments, marketing, whatever, who's coming in to be like, that's not how you spell it. Some of our stuff goes viral in Poland, which I'm always like, oh, no. When that happens, I can tell what it starts happening because I start seeing the story shares that are, like, in Europe, right? Or they're in, like, I've. Some of, like, the polish freezer, there was, like, a lot that were like, what is it, Cyrillic? Like in Russian?

43:14
Vanessa White
Like the different Alphabet. Like, there's a lot of that. So when some of our stuff goes viral in Poland, like, we just. A polish american influencer just posted us yesterday and did, like, a collaborator request. I was like, sure. But I was like, oh, God. Because then they start going through the feed and being like, this isn't traditional. Like, no one in Poland eats Perugi these ways in this way. And I'm like, that sort of sounds.

43:36
Daniel Scharff
Like any press is good press. They're like an influencer, and they're just putting your brand out there.

43:41
Vanessa White
That one was good. She was wonderful. But I was like, oh, she posts in Polish. Like, her posts are in Polish. And she's really catering to, like, a very, like, the really recent polish immigrant to the US. Sometimes I'm like, oh, gosh, this is going to pull people in here. That's going to start. But just so everyone knows, I have officially signed up for a polish class. I didn't learn from my mom or my grandmother, so I've signed up for a polish language class from online through this university in Krakow. And it starts on Monday. So now I can take on all of my haters in the comments.

44:15
Daniel Scharff
I love it. Oh, my God, you're going to school so that you can talk smack to Instagram haters. I love it. I thought, that's funny. I really thought where that was going is, like, so I can really understand and embrace my, you know, polls well, that I want to talk smack to those guys in Polish. You're a champ.

44:33
Vanessa White
So, so much. But, like, because it's kind of like a recent or it's like an up and coming. Like, I want to say, like, we're trying to make it more mainstream, right? Like, look at all the things we've done to tacos. Like, 90% of the things we've done to tacos are not how they eat tacos in Mexico. Right?

44:48
Daniel Scharff
Are you saying they eat them on the other six days of the week? Also taco Tuesday?

44:54
Vanessa White
Or, like, I don't know that anyone is ate a jackfruit taco. Like, I don't think that was a thing. So, like, we're trying to make pierogi more mainstream, but there's still, like, a lot of protectionism. Is that the word? Like, it's like people are very protective of it as a food and as a tradition, which is, like. Again, it's a big positive because as we talked about, people will really seek them out. They'll drive for good ones. They feel really connected, but they also can be very judgy. We made a reel that went not super viral, but got, like, a few thousand likes about, like, the polish smile. And people can't say this on the podcast, but, like, basically, the polish smile of approval is, like, no smile.

45:33
Vanessa White
Like, if someone likes your pierogi and they're polish, most of the time, they're just gonna, like, look at you and not say anything negative. And they'll be like, this kind of, like, silent approval. So it's hard to get, like, positive reinforcement from an eastern european. But people will walk up to me while I'm, like, 45 orders deep at Newport folk Festival or Boston calling and start speaking to me in Polish. And I'm like, sorry, disappointment point. I don't know what you're saying. So it's like, I want to be able to converse with people who are very well intended, but also, I can't use Google translate anymore to decipher all the swear words.

46:10
Daniel Scharff
All right, well, good for you. I was just thinking, like, there's a very epic quote. I think it's Horatius. I was just looking that up to check it, which is, like, the aim of the poet is to inform or delight. And that's, like, you can think about a lot of, like, art can do that. But actually, now I think we have to add on, like, also to inform or delight or trigger. I think also because, like, I think people do, in some ways, probably enjoy going on and leaving those like hateful comments on just about anything on the Internet and expressing their opinion. And like, that is a real reaction and that actually helps things get shared as well.

46:44
Vanessa White
Good people love the comment section as well. So I also like to contribute to that too where I just like kind of joking back with these people with the dry humor. Like that people come in and they also understand more about our brand and our brand voice and our brand vibe from my comments. So that's like another layer of it that people are like, oh, like, I've had people be like, everyone in your comments made me laugh out loud and so then they follow us and like, I love what you're doing. I love you make me laugh all the time. And that's like the best compliment for me is like, you know, being a brand that people enjoy seeing the content that we're putting out.

47:21
Daniel Scharff
I've been in these situations before and people make these comments and you're like, you have no idea what's going on. Like, you know, for me, I would be like, you have no idea about these like ten things that I'm doing that if you knew about them, you would care so much and just be like, thank you actually for like, and you know, in your instance, like, thank you for promoting, you know, awareness of polish culture through this food and being able to share it. And I know because, you know, I've looked through your website that you actually have sponsored a polish american women scholarship as well. Could you mind telling us a little bit about that?

47:51
Vanessa White
Yeah, absolutely. So we partnered with the Boston Polish American Citizens Club and I'm actually thinking, I'm like, man, I should really expand this now that we're selling nationwide. But it's originated that way. So every spring we have around. Because it's women's month next month, right? International Women's month. So we launch it around March. It's actually open right now, but I start announcing it and promoting it around March because being a woman owned business, being two sisters and really like kind of going back to what we talked about at the very beginning, we did this all on our own. So we took our first round of like not even that much funding, but some funding in November. So we got to those 2000 doors by knocking on doors ourselves. Like using our connections.

48:33
Vanessa White
Like connections meaning like another peer in the space, not like uncle, you know, Jimmy who has a billion dollars. Like, hey, do you have the buyer for this door? Or like doing a lot of Google sleuthing? And we really just worked really hard to build this thing from the ground. Up and people have said, like, oh, you've kind of seen, like, an american dream where it's like, I guess you could say that. I mean, I like to think that people see are inspired by, because a lot of people who follow us have, like, saw us at breweries in 2016, and so they've really seen us, like, come up and really grow this business.

49:06
Vanessa White
So, like, going back to the woman owned business thing, it's like if we can inspire women to, like, take the leap on an idea that they have and know that they can do it, if they have, like, the business acumen and they have the drive and whatever, they can build something without having a ton of money or without having a million connections, like, you can do it. So through the scholarship, it's like, kind of inspiring women and, like, young women who are pursuing any kind of education. In supporting that education, it just seemed like the perfect combination. It's like heritage supporting women, all of that. So working to grow it every year. And last year, so the first year we gave away one scholarship, last year we gave away two.

49:51
Vanessa White
So we're working to keep on growing that scholarship, and that's just like, you know, our way to give back. And people don't know that there's, like, this polish american citizens club either in Boston, and, like, they. It's such an, like, in so many places, they're closing. Like, the polish churches are closing or the cultural centers are closing, and that's just polish, but, like, a lot of cultural centers. So it's like keeping that alive, bringing people to the polish club and making them aware that they can go and have a beer there anytime they want.

50:19
Daniel Scharff
That's beautiful. Well, I mean, kudos to you ladies for supporting women in that way. That's really incredible. And I hope all of the haters will somehow find out about that and then probably realize they aren't doing anything in their lives to help anybody except tearing people down on the Internet and maybe feel at least a moment of regret.

50:37
Vanessa White
It's okay. They have. They have all eleven followers and they live in their mom's basement for the most part, I think. So it's okay.

50:42
Daniel Scharff
They're just mad because their mom's not making them any pierogies.

50:45
Vanessa White
Exactly. I'd be mad too. You know, I'd be mad too.

50:50
Daniel Scharff
So back to just the social media strategy a little bit. I've seen. Yeah, like all the videos you mentioned, I've seen a really funny one where you had pierogies coming out of your freezer ice maker, like, popping into a cup and the sound is really cool from it. And another where you had, yeah, like your Stanley mug where you had the pierogies in it and a car holder, all of that stuff was great. So if you're talking to an early brand, one of your clients, or just anybody out there, and they're just trying to understand, like, how much effort should we actually be putting into social media? Because, you know, I've seen some brands who are just like, you know, it's almost like a website for them. They're just, like, putting up a lot of product photos.

51:28
Daniel Scharff
And I just want to tell them, like, hey, do you, an Instagram user, follow a bunch of brands and, like, their flavor shots? Like, no. Why would you care about that stuff? Like, Instagram is not really for that. Like, you. You know, I'm like, unless you're really going to do content, kind of like what you were saying, that, like, that resonates with you, that you can, like, see something in yourself in it that gives you a reason to want to share it. I'm kind of like, either don't put in really much effort at all or put in a really serious amount of effort to make it part of your strategy. What do you think?

51:55
Vanessa White
Yeah. So I agree with you. I think that I guess I'll tackle this in a couple of different answers. One is I tell everybody, and it also applies to me, no one cares about our brand. Like, there's very few brands out there that people like. It's a, you know, there's the jokes, the status symbol brand. So there's like, I don't even know if status symbol is the right word, but it's like the brand erewhon. Or like, the graza right now is like the big one, right. That it comes to mind for me, obviously. Like some things, like, at least I'm from New England, so the whole dunkings thing from Super bowl was huge. So it's like the Dunk Kings sweatsuit.

52:31
Vanessa White
Like, there are certain things that people do want to associate themselves with and therefore the brand being prevalent is okay, but you have to work to get there. You have to work really hard to get there. And I assume to be one of those brands at one point, but they did a lot of, like, Graza did a lot of work for, like, product placement with a lot of influencers I was watching. And so that it's not. Doesn't happen overnight, but for the most part, for the rest of us, for the 99.9% rest of us, no one cares about your brand. Like, they do, but they don't care in the sense of, to your point, if you're posting a product, just a product photo, no one cares because they're not seeing themselves in that. They're not associating with that. So you have to do work.

53:16
Vanessa White
Like, I'm really focused on placing our products in the background or working with influencers that, like, are placing our product in the background. Like, I'm partnering with Steph the sommelier coming up in March, and she's in Canada, but she does, like, wine pairings with, like, different foods. And she has about 150,000 followers. I think she's been wonderful to work with. But, like, she was like, okay, well, for this much money, like, I'll just put, like, I'm not going to call out your brand, but, like, it'll be in the background, right? And, like, I'll be cooking them up and, like, be pairing them with wine. I'm like, that's actually perfect because I don't want it to be so forced, like an ad. I just want people to keep seeing the product tangentially.

53:56
Vanessa White
Like, so that's why I tell people too, is like, the marketing has to be tangential. I always say that word. But I think that's what I mean to your brand, right? Like, it has to be parallel, but not all about the brand. It has to be tied to it, but not, it's, like, kind of hanging in the background.

54:13
Daniel Scharff
Cause it's not a tv ad, right? Like a tv ad, great. If you just want stuff that makes your product look amazing and have somebody saying, oh, it's so good, like, great, yeah, tv ad, they kind of have to watch that. But social media content, like, you choose whether or not you want to engage with that kind of content and, like, whether you're gonna actually proactively go and give it a reaction or share it, and if it doesn't resonate with you, or at least be like, roll over on the floor, like, laughing kind of funny, probably. Unless you'll have to have some really compelling reason to do it. And I mean, yeah, looking through your stuff, I could see, like, at least through your TikTok coming kind of from the early days.

54:46
Daniel Scharff
Like, yeah, anyone, like, scroll all the way back, and you'll see, like, early reels were getting, like, you know, 200, 300 views, and then you had a couple hits that would be very, like, cooking centric, like cooking kielbasa and pierogies and then just really focusing on the food. And those are the ones that just started to hit. So I could just I mean, you know, at least my observation, like, probably you're like, oh, okay. That's what I should be focusing on more. Is this just, like, the culture of cooking and pierogies and, like, that's very familiar. And you can almost smell them cooking when you see the video. You know, that's, like, very evocative for people. And then I could see you leaning more into that.

55:20
Daniel Scharff
And then, yeah, the brand is there, but it's subtle because that's not why people are going to post. It's more because of this thing that it's tapping into about them. And then just, like, could see the likes and plays going up over time. So getting to 400 and now 600 is your baseline. And then there you're starting to get some that hit to, like, two k, five k, then just kind of marching along that path and then having, obviously, one that hit, I think, like, 1.2 million and a bunch of other stuff like that. Is that a good retro view on it?

55:50
Vanessa White
Yeah, I think so. A couple of things that I learned on TikTok, like the cooking, the fresh kielbasa. One did well, and then the other one that did well, like, early on was talking about, what is it? Oh, my God. I'm gonna blank out his name. Anyway, a polish revolutionary war hero that. So on July 4, I talked about this guy who was, like, the head of the american cavalry who was polish. And I learned, oh, yeah, people like history. Like, they like polish american cultural history, too. They like to learn. So then I was like, this is an idea. This is angle, too, where it's like, we're really, like, a polish american cultural brand and sharing, again, like, it doesn't have to be about the pierogi all the time. Right? It doesn't have to be directly about our product all the time.

56:34
Vanessa White
It's about creating, like, this brand personality, which, for me, is really leaning into that polish american culture. So, like, I have, like, talking about the evolution of the pierogi that we talked about on the Silk road. I have, like, a graphic, and I'm planning on doing, like, a green screen over time, talking about the evolution of the perogee. I did a substack about that recently, and it's just, like, kind of informing people about polish culture. So that is one angle going back to TikTok. I enjoy just testing things on TikTok. I mean, we have around 1700 followers now, which has been, like. I think I had, like, a hundred, like, last year. So that's been good. And on Instagram, were at less than 10,000 in August. And now we're at like 26.

57:18
Vanessa White
And I have not paid for a single one of those followers on either platform. I've just, it's just been through content creation, which is something I like toot toot my own horn about. And I mean, one of the goals is definitely like starting to shift the epicenter of those followers, which is happening. It's on Instagram. Obviously, were super massachusetts heavy. Now it's New York and there's a lot of Chicago, obviously polish people, Chicago kind of blending in there. But I'm trying to kind of, that's one of my big goals for this year is to kind of, I am going to start doing some paid stuff in some target markets to see how impact sales.

57:50
Vanessa White
But places like Tampa, Florida or, you know, Sacramento, California, or just like kind of picking out some target markets and really isolating them and saying, okay, if I do Google Ads, if I do paid social in these markets, like do I see a bump in sales and followers?

58:07
Daniel Scharff
And I imagine you will because you've done the work now to build up that kind of core following, which is really important. I can see your engagement rates are really high. You know, typically, like when you're doing posts now on Instagram, you know, you have more than 20,000 followers and you're getting, you know, 600 to 1000 likes on, you know, a normal post, which that's a really high rate. That's really cool to see. So like, yeah, I can tell just by looking at it that you didn't buy those are organic followers.

58:31
Daniel Scharff
And so because you've now built that up, I expect once you start doing some promoted posts, it's going to do really well, especially because everything that you've dialed in about your content and what really resonates, but also because I think just like Amazon reviews, you know, if you go in and try to advertise your new Amazon product and you have no ratings, then no one's going to buy it. But now you, I mean, you're validated by this very intense, I won't say cult like, but definitely a core following of Pierogi lovers.

59:00
Vanessa White
There are a few cult numbers for sure. I definitely have like the people who are always chatting with me and the DM's who are like super fans. And I love it. It's amazing. Like people who are really into the brand and like, that's huge word of mouth marketing too, right? And so I'm always responding to people, like everyone gets a really thorough answer from me or like, a funny answer or whatever. Like, if someone puts us on their story, I respond to them, like, and I know that when I was younger and I, like, interacted with some brands that I really liked, and they actually, like, responded and acknowledged, I was like, oh, my God. They talk to me like, you know, so I try to, like, give everyone the time of day. But, yeah, I think you're at, like, TikTok.

59:42
Vanessa White
I just kind of, like, throw things up there and see how they do as, like, a testing ground for Instagram. And then a lot of if they do well, and, like, I don't think they're worthy of a full Instagram. Instagram posts, like, on the feed, I just share them to the story. I just feel like TikTok is a little bit more, like, I don't know, informal. Like, kind of throw it up, like, see what happens, whatever. And I just try to be vulnerable. Like, I've taken videos of myself, you know, like, standing in front of a shelf and being like, oh, my God, you guys are actually buying our product. Like, there's bags missing here, you know, like, and it's special.

01:00:16
Vanessa White
Every time you walk into a store and you're like, oh, my God, there's someone who actually bought our product even, like, six or eight years in, and you're like, wow, people actually like this. And I don't even know these people that are buying this product. So I just try to be vulnerable and real and just, like, test things out on TikTok. And then if they do well, like, you know, pop them up, some things I know are going to do well, like that polish trifle. I was like, here it goes. Throw it up there. Can't wait for all the people to yell at me. Like, sometimes I know, but other times, TikTok is a good testing ground.

01:00:44
Daniel Scharff
That's great to hear, and I'm sure I think that's true for everybody. Like, you have different personalities, and if. If your brand is a reflection of your personality, then you can use your strengths and your authenticity to resonate with people, which will make them engage with the content, right? And, like, yeah, maybe you're authentically fun and vulnerable, and, like, that is the thing that people are going to resonate with. Because if you try to be something different, like, if you try to be, like, confident, boss, like, okay, people probably, like, see that's not genuinely you. And because, you know, when people are acting and not doing something that's so genuine, like, okay, that's not gonna resonate as much. So, I mean, I always just try to think about and talk to people about, like, yeah.

01:01:21
Daniel Scharff
Find the things that are, like, really are true about you and your brand and that are gonna, yeah, like, different angles that'll resonate with people and then really lean into those.

01:01:30
Vanessa White
But just to answer, like, the last part of your question about, like, I agree that people have different strengths, and so if your strength is not social, you don't have anybody that. And I always say, like, for me, I tell people, you gotta be willing to make an ass of yourself. Sorry for swearing on your podcast. But, like, I feel like for me, it's like, as a business owner, at a certain extent, you have to be comfortable putting yourself out there. If you're not or if you don't have anyone on your team that can kind of run it, you know, it is. It can serve as a landing page, but you have to do work elsewhere. So, like, PR is not my strong suit. Like, I don't really have a lot of training in it.

01:02:05
Vanessa White
I kind of see my social media as my pr in a lot of ways, but, like, that doesn't get a lot of resources from me. So I think it's like, if you're not going to do the social media thing, you have to work hard elsewhere to kind of support your marketing in other ways.

01:02:19
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, very true. Okay, so just to wrap up, one thing I wanted to come back to is you mentioned in the early days you were working with some regional distributors and like, bazutos associated grocers. Obviously, this would be frozen supply chain. Can you just talk a little bit about, like. Yeah, what was it like to kind of onboard and work with some of those guys? Because probably a lot of people listening might be more familiar with the national ones and unify and kehi. But, you know, not know what's different about working maybe with some of the more regional ones and just, you know, any kind of lessons learned on frozen distribution in general?

01:02:50
Vanessa White
Absolutely. Actually, this is a great thing. A great lesson learned or a great tip to share. We started out with the regional guys, so we started, our first distributor was a distributor called Northeast Specialty Foods. And they are still put in pos every two weeks. They still order like 80 cases from us every two weeks. They service like, Boston area up to mid coast Maine, and they do a lot of like, small stores and butcher shops for us. And so they still are strong distributor because those places have like, a single door freezer and they're not buying from UNFI. Right. So that's like, there's these people who are servicing and getting to the stores that are not hitting the minimums with the big guys, we started with those. We worked with Dorothy's specialty.

01:03:33
Vanessa White
Then I think the second one we added on was Marty's local, who services like the Berkshires and eastern New York and southern Vermont. And for us, like having these regional distributors has been so key to our success and also just like financially, because the small guys, we also work with a lot of home delivery services, too. We brought on imperfect misfits in the last couple of years. But like, even regionally, some of the home, like the milkman services that have become like the home deliveries, all these small guys and this patchwork of regional distributors, they're not going to be giving you chargebacks. They're not asking for a lot of stuff. They're just asking for a consistent product and like support the marketing support in terms of, like, you just developing a brand that people want, not marketing support in terms of giving them promotions.

01:04:22
Vanessa White
So it's just like really good partnerships. A lot of times you're working directly with the owners. And so it's just helped us like with then bring on unify and Keiki, which obviously are completely different animals to have this diversification of our business. Right, where like if something is, we got a mistake. Chargeback from UNFI for $15,000 at Christmas time, another Merry Christmas. Like an erroneous slotting fee that wasn't meant to happen. And it's like, okay, well, that sucks. But at least we have all these other distributors that are going to be paying their bills and there's no surprises coming. So I would always advise people, like, when you're starting out to start with the regional distributors, like one at a time as you like, gain your confidence.

01:05:06
Vanessa White
And then once you have experience with like fulfilling those orders, then pursue something like a UnfI or khee with a chain. And I honestly, like, still now am seeking regional distributors in other areas of the country because I know that they're reaching stores and they have sales teams sometimes and they know more about their product catalog than the UNFI reps that are like completely overwhelmed with how much they have to offer. And they're honestly not for any fault of their own. They're just not going to be there to promote your product like a regional distributor will. So.

01:05:37
Daniel Scharff
Okay, great lessons. Thank you. So I think that we can wrap here. This has been such an interesting and fun discussion and just really cool to learn from all of your expertise around social media. So thanks for sharing kind of story and timeline with everybody.

01:05:54
Vanessa White
I'm glad we could commiserate. I'm glad we could commiserate on our trolls.

01:05:58
Daniel Scharff
Yes, I know. I'm going to start sending you some screenshots.

01:06:01
Vanessa White
Yes, absolutely.

01:06:03
Daniel Scharff
Anything for people to know if they want to, like, you know, follow you, follow the brand. Like LinkedIn, Instagram, you know, I would.

01:06:11
Vanessa White
Say I'm an Instagram. Like, that's the. That's like the best way to contact me. So if you follow jaju pierogi. So it's j a j u p I e r o g I, jaju pirogi. Send a message there. I'm there on the Instagram. It's just me. So you can reach me there and, like, then we can branch off from there to email if we want to have a chat or anything like that. But I am a full believer in paying forward. There's so many businesses that helped us as we are growing. So if there's any way that I can help anybody else, I'm happy to.

01:06:40
Daniel Scharff
All right, well, that does it for another episode of the Startup CPG podcast. Thank you so much to Vanessa White, who's been our guest from Jaju Pierogi. Definitely follow up with her on Instagram, also on the startup CBG, Slack. And thank you again for joining us. And thanks to all of you guys for listening along. See you next week.

01:06:59
Vanessa White
Thanks, guys.

01:07:03
Daniel Scharff
All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the podcast today, it would really help us out if you can leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I am Daniel Scharff. I'm the host and founder of startup CPG. Please feel free to reach out or add me on LinkedIn. If you're a potential sponsor that would like to appear on the podcast, please email partnershipstartupcpg.com and reminder to all of you out there, we would love to have you join the community. You can sign up at our website, startupcpg.com to learn about our webinars, events and slack channel. If you enjoyed today's music, you can check out my band, it's the super fantastics on Spotify music. On behalf of the entire startup CPG team, thank you so much for listening and your support. See you next time.